China Law Blog

Although things are much better know than they were ten years ago, this practice is still a nuisance and it does have a sort of implicit government sanction.

I wonder to what extent it would be possible to sue the owner of a restaurant or a service for racial discrimination, or holding the Chinese government responsible under "International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination". Why would that work or not work, anyone?

Capitalism at its best. Segmenting the customers and price accordingly. Why would Viagra cost a fraction in Canada than US? Same capitalism.

In Italy, the markup can be much higher than 100%. I see here again a common practice set up as a singularity, followed by bold generalization.

Functionally, think of it paying for a 2 year warranty on a big screen TV. Odds are, the TV won't break (and replacing a big screen TV is too inexpensive to fall under catastrophic insurance concept) and the warranty is just a way to get certain buyers to willingly part with more of their money.

The TV seller takes advantage of certain consumer's financial illiteracy. The Chinese restaurant takes advantage of certain consumer's likely affluence using the proxy of (lack of) language skills.

Having said that, thanks for letting me know. I'll be sure to ask for Chinese menus the next time I'm in China with my laowai significant other.

No, it's tourist discrimination, and that's practiced everywhere. For example, when I was living near Saratoga Springs, New York it was widely believed you should never eat out in August - because all the restaurants raised their prices to catch the rich tourists from New York City during racing season.

Dan - you have a great blog. But what is this? Student eating comments or law? This is stupid commentary, and who cares? China and elsewhere in Asia has been like this for ages, and you just notice? Stick to law comment, you are better at it and the desire to dumb down your blog (college standards) isn't helping. You are cool, but this tendency to comments such as this is dumb. 16 year olds post this nonsense.

Economist call it price discrimination, and the practice occurs in developed economies, also. If I go to the movies with my father, I pay more for a ticket than my father who enjoys the senior citizen discount. Students also pay less.

The idea is that people in lower and upper age categories generally have less money. In reality, some in these age brackets are well off. While non-Chinese are still generally doing better than locals, why shouldn't they placed into a price discrimination scheme that has them paying more?

There are bars and restaurants in China that offer discounts to English teachers. Why not ban those discounts?

So, to summarize this discussion, it would be perfectably acceptable to target Asians for rip-offs in Europe and North America? Or did I miss something?

It should be made clear, price discrimination between locals and foreigners was officially banned by the government in China a number of years ago.

To the comment above regarding pricing being raised in Saratoga Springs, this would only be the same if when you went out you were given a "local" menu and tourists were given a "tourist" menu. Raising prices in the high season is completely different.

As for this happening in Italy, if I was an expat in Italy, I'd be bitching about it as well. :-)

I think taking this the extra step and comparing it to discounting schemes is a bit much. Should we say people that drink at happy hours are getting an unfair price benefit due to the fact that they don't mind getting pissed before dinner?

It's not a matter of this having been going on for ages in Asia/China, it's that it is STILL going on. I'm not in the habit of bending over quite so willingly - and assume others aren't either.

Amban's nailed it. This is outright discrimination to those perceived to have the ability to afford it balanced with an equally ignorant (yet often accurate) assumption that the mark is none the wiser.

I have encountered several Chinese restaurants in the states having "Chinese People" menus. The food is more Chinese (less American), so much better (if you're a Chinese food connoisseur). Price? Don't know the difference...

This is not a big deal by chinese standard. Equality is never a big thing in China. People are assigned a certain status at the time they are born based on the status of their parents. And they are treated unequally thereafter based on their status, by government policy and law. Even though it is told all people are equal in front of the law, nobody has ever thought about what it really means for each individual person.

This doesn't surprise me, but at the same time, I don't think I've ever encountered this in a restaurant.

Some of the comments on this are rather surprising:

“Capitalism at its best. Segmenting the customers and price accordingly. Why would Viagra cost a fraction in Canada than US? Same capitalism.”

Viagra costs more in the US than Canada because of price controls in Canada – simple as that. Segmentation usually implies that different products are marketed to different demographics and not the same product being provided at different prices depending on race.
Capitalism? Yes.

At it’s best? Are you serious?

“The TV seller takes advantage of certain consumer's financial illiteracy. The Chinese restaurant takes advantage of certain consumer's likely affluence using the proxy of (lack of) language skills.”

Granted additional insurance is often a rip-off to pad the bottom line of retailers but it is not the equivalent of having a ‘special’ menu for laowai with jacked up prices. I just don’t get the comparison here.

“Economist call it price discrimination, and the practice occurs in developed economies, also. If I go to the movies with my father, I pay more for a ticket than my father who enjoys the senior citizen discount. Students also pay less.”

Economists call it racial discrimination. And its practice in developed, undeveloped or developing nations is abhorrent. Neither students nor those that are above retirement age are often gainfully employed and are usually on fixed incomes. This is the primary reason why this is tolerated. If a wealthy 65 y/o is taking advantage of this advantage than it’s the price we pay to give these other people a discount.

“The idea is that people in lower and upper age categories generally have less money. In reality, some in these age brackets are well off. While non-Chinese are still generally doing better than locals, why shouldn't they placed into a price discrimination scheme that has them paying more?”

Because they are not always doing better than Chinese and you can’t tell someone’s wealth by their race and why should someone pay more than the going rate for a product based on his or her race? Are you seriously equating racial discrimination to giving retirees and students a break at the movies? Amazing.

Racism in any nation is just bad: bad for business and bad for society.

This is standard practice for many Chinese restaurants in the United States. They post prices in English and Chinese and the Chinese prices are significantly lower.

It's also isn't illegal, and I don't even think that it is unethical.

There is nothing to keep a Caucasian from learning Chinese and getting the Chinese prices. Conversely, if you are ethnic Chinese and you can't read Chinese, you lose.

Also it isn't a Chinese versus foreigner thing, if you know someone that speaks the local dialect, you can get huge discounts on things.

@Joseph Wang

Oh, so it's not unethical. Now, is this a two-way street? Can a "Caucasian" lump all "Asians" into one category and rip them off under the assumption that they must be wealthy, ignorant of his particular idiom or whatever? Would be interesting to see how a Chinese living in Switzerland would react to the idea that he should pay a higher price because he doesn't speak the local variant of Schwyzerdutch in the canton he happens to be in. I thought that was a textbook definition of racism, but you always learn something new.

Don't cry racism where none is implied. This is not about "racial" anything. What you have a restaurant that is charging more to those who can't read Chinese. A foreigner who reads Chinese would presumably have a chance at the cheaper menu.

You may feel left behind (or left out) because you don't read Chinese, but that's not China's problem. The country should not treat non-Chinese speakers in the way that America treats its disabled. Would you legally require these restaurants to keep on staff specially trained translators in much the same way that we require restaurants in the US to have wheelchair accessible dining?

It's a silly issue anyway. All these restaurants have to do to avoid whining Western liberals is raise the price of those items foreigners show a stronger preference for and they will have accomplished the same end result! I'd like to see all of these cry babies file a lawsuit claiming that racism is behind the inflated price of Kung Pao Chicken!

If you don't like the prices at a restaurant, go to another one.

have heard lots about that, it's sick!!!
it's a misfortune that China doesn't enforce their laws against discrimation, which is an important basis for a good society.

@Paul M

I assume that your remarks are directed at me. First, I'm trying to make a serious point, so please spare me all these gratuitous remarks about cry-babies and your sniping against laws to protect disabled.

Now, I do speak and read Chinese and I have no problem working my way through a Chinese menu, so I don't feel handicapped the slightest. But that doesn't mean that I am targeted for attempts to rip me off on the basis that I look physically different from most people in China. I can learn a language, but I can't change my DNA.

I didn’t realize there was an upswing of whining western liberals flocking to China asking for specialized service from the dumpling joints on the corner. This has become silly.

Racism is neither implied nor is it usually pernicious for foreigners, compared to racism in the States. Here it is overt and comes with a smile.

Comments maybe directed at those who share a particular view?

Amban,

It's not racial discrimination. It's discrimination against those who cannot read Mandarin. Implicitly, it's discrimination against foreigners.

Sin-Yaw Wang,

It is capitlism and though I am a proud capitalist, I certainly favor laws preventing discrimination. Is this like redlining in the United States where African Americans pay more for their mortgages simply because of their color. I can state unequivacally that I favor laws preventing such discrimination. But I am not sure it is the same thing here. Is it?

Leo,

Absolutely true. Probably 200% in Venice. Legal or not, moral or not, I think it is bad business. I cannot believe really good restaurants do this. Why offend customers?

Astrid,

I buy into your analogy, but I have one major problem with it. Isn't it more like a TV store selling those warranties just to foreigners? Does that make it different? What if it were just to Hispanics?

Tony,

Maybe. I know up here in the Northwest, hotels in both Seattle and Portland will advertise amazing rates in the newspapers for locals that are not available anywhere else.

FoodieLawyer,

I would hope that the richness of the comments above would change your mind on this. And if they don't, well I am entitled to veer off every once in a while, I think.

Paul M,

You get the award (so far) for best analogies. Definitely better than your Apple keyboard one.

Amban,

You are finding race/ethnic discrimination where I see none. It is on language so it is against all foreigners, even Chinese-Americans and Chinese-Australians, and Chinese-Swedes who cannot read Chinese.

The Humanaught,

Amban has not nailed it because he says it is race and it is not race. What about Paul M.'s analogy to the discounts given at the movie theatre? I now see a difference between that and the menu you were given: at the theatre, the discount is not hidden.

If there is nothing wrong with this discount, why then are both prices not on the same menu?

quote

@Would be interesting to see how a Chinese living in Switzerland would react to the idea that he should pay a higher price because he doesn't speak the local variant of Schwyzerdutch in the canton he happens to be in.

Probably the same way that Chinese in the United States figure out that they get better jobs and make a lot more money if they speak and read English well. That's why you have so many people learning the language.

There is nothing *in this particular situation* that has anything to do with race, since there are white people that read Chinese very well, and ethnic Chinese who can't read it at all, and there isn't any inherent relationship between your DNA and what languages you read/speak.

If you want to expand the discussion to include other things besides *this particular situation* (which as I point out happens a lot in the United States) then that's another argument.

I am not sure if "overt and smiling" racism is better than anything else.

At any rate, when it comes to China, there simply isn't a vocabulary with which you can talk about racism. Whatever. Different rules of evidence seems to apply here. If our strict definitions about what constitutes racism and discrimination in China were applied elsewhere in the world, we could probably prove that racism doesn't exist anywhere anymore. A brave new world.

Chris D,

This is true at just about every "ethnic" restaurant state-side, in that they all have foods they are convinced the "natives" will not like, separate menu or no separate menu. There was a time where I would go to a Korean restaurant here in Seattle and to let them know I wanted the food authentic, I would call for it to be "Korean hot, not just hot."

Nothing better even over here than going to a Vietnamese restaurant with someone who speaks Vietnamese, Korean with a Korean, etc. It becomes much more authentic just by having the right people with you. Never thought about the prices.

xge,

I absolutely challenge your assertion that "nobody has ever thought" about what equality means under Chinese law because I personally have had hours long in depth discussions on this very point with Chinese lawyers who think about this all the time and can speak quite eloquently on it.

One of the things I like about China is that it does to a large extent aspire to equality, as does the US. But, of course, just like in the US, it falls far short. But to me, the aspiration does matter.

I can remember maybe five years ago driving through Shandong province with a Chinese lawyer with whom I still work and whom I know consider a good friend and our discussing our two countries. I will never forget how when I asked him what he liked most about China and what he liked least he answered that he could come from a family whose father had been a coal miner with a 4th grade education and go off to Beijing University Law School. He liked how China allowed that. He liked least how he was now sending his kids to private school because the public schools in his city were just not very good and he worried about the growing class differences.

I then told him what a firm believer I was in public schools and America's belief in equal opportunity but that my biggest fear is that growing wealth differentials, suburbanization, and private schools are eating away at the opportunities. I never for a moment believed we had true equality of opportunity here, but again, the desire for it is important.

Hardly a conversation with someone who never thought about equality.

Tim,

First off, you do an excellent job of distinguishing the analogies. Secondly, I completely agree with you that racism is bad for society and for business. I would also add that it corrodes the soul. But, I am just not convinced we are dealing with racism here. Why are you so convinced.

Joseph Wang,

I agree with you this is not racism, but it is a bit bothersome nonetheless, though I am having trouble putting my finger on why. I guess I just feel that someeone is being taken advantage of and I don't like it.

Here's one for everyone. My older brother sold pianos for a few years down in Texas and did extremely well at it. He would get a commission based in large part on how much he sold the piano for. He would get these super rich Texans who would come in and want a Grand piano just so it would look nice in their living room. My brother would quote a very high price and not budge. Parents coming in to buy a first piano for their kid to play he would typically sell for virtually no comission at all. How does this fit in with all the rest of the analogies? Fair/unfair? Right/wrong?

Paul M,

Why do you assume all of the "whiners" are liberals?

Shopgirl's Shanghai,

Discrimination goes on all the time and some of it is not even a bad thing. In hiring, we discriminate against the unqualified. In tipping at a restaurant, we discriminate against the bad waiters and waitresses. Obviously certain kinds of discrimination are worse than others and racial discrimination certainly qualifies as "sick." But who is being discriminated against here and how bad is that?

Amban,

When I was in high school in Istanbul I would hang out at the Covered Bazaar where the starting price was typically based on the country you were from. The German price was the highest to begin with and the highest at the end. The Turkish price was of course the lowest. Never even occured to me then that this might be seen as discrimination. I just saw it as a question of who was the savviest. Because I lived there and spoke Turkish, I usually got the Turkish price or something very close to it. I was still an American, but I had Turkish knowledge of prices and the ability to negotiate until I got them. Is this any different from the people who pay full price for a car and those who gain enough knowledge and fight hard enough to pay less?

Tim,

Why do you too assume those who complain about this practice in China are liberals? I make no such assumption.

Also, where are you in the United States where "overt" racism is so rampant?

TwoFish,

As usual, good points. And of course in the United States, those who speak English really well are at an advantage in the job market as compared with those who barely speak it at all. And of course this is true with respect to the local language probably everywhere in the world.

Amban,

Nobody is saying there is no racism in China. Certainly I am not saying that. All people are saying is that this is not racism and it isn't. It is discrimination, but not based on race.

@Dan
I contend that it is racism because they are using language as a vehicle to discriminate against those who do not look Chinese. I often go to a restaurant around the corner from my office. When I show up with my Korean French friend, she gets the Chinese menu and I get the English menu. Now this particular restaurant is a bit more progressive than the ones described in this post because the prices are the same, however I can read/speak Chinese but my Korean French Friend cannot. The initial assumption is it is the other way around and it is based on how I look and not my ability to read.

Restaurants do not test your reading ability when you walk in the door so the one with English menus (whether or not they have jacked up prices ) are automatically given out to foreigners, or rather non-Asian faces and this isn’t a bad practice in itself (except if you are a non-English speaker and get annoyed by everyone assuming you speak English because you are white). You have to also remember that overseas Chinese are not considered Laowai, nor in many cases are other Asians called Laowai – that is a book in itself – so often times anyone who is not Asian is lumped into this catchall Laowai and the assumptions about these people start from there.

Admittedly, China is getting better and I do not run into blatant discrimination as often as I did in the 90’s; and often times I understand why they are behaving this way (I think Granite Studio did an excellent post on this once about visiting a market with his wife). But this does not excuse the behavior nor does it justify treating others who do not look like you and speak like you differently.

This is why the fact that this issue is so contentious amazes me. When foreigners come to town and have their shoes shined (and you know who I am talking about) only to have the shoes destroyed then charged an exorbitant amount of money to have them ‘fixed’, the Laowai is targeted by the way he looks not because he cannot speak the language because they come after me as well. When French tourists go to a tea house in Shanghai and are charged 7,000RMB for a couple of cups of tea, this is not fair nor is it based upon language abilities but how you look. And if these people complain to the police they will often do something: the tea-house was raided and forced to close down btw.

I don’t assume that it is only Western Liberals who complain about this in China, I was pointing out that Pual M’s comment to that point was silly. Overt racism rarely occurs in the States was my point (perhaps not too clear though…) as it is not tolerated to the extent that it is here.

@Amban Overt and smiling racism is not necessarily better; it’s just the way it is normally packaged in China to foreigners. Although being White and having first really experienced racism to the extent that I have in China, it has given me a different perspective on the issue back in the States where I believe the issue is in many ways more serious.

Dan - Let's not bring up that Apple analogy. My original comment was not understood, and I thought it was easier to drop the thing. For the record now, the customer bought an Apple computer. The worker who wrote the software was working in poor conditions (i.e., on a bad keyboard). Apple employee received harm because of workplace environment. This was the argument put out there by Tofani and supported by yourself - that the average customer is to blame for the average bad workplace condition.

Btw, I did not imply all liberals are whiners. The sentence could be read as "those liberals who happen also to whine". I understand, by the way, the feeling of being ripped off, but China has no monopoly there. You can get that feeling going to any tourist trap around the world, also. That's taking advantage of outsiders, if ever there was such a circumstance.

Tim,

I did not realize until now this was you so when you talked about overt racism here I thought the here was in the US. Hence some of the confusion.

You certainly raise some excellent points and in reading your comment I think an excellent person to shed light on this is co-blogger, Steve Dickinson, who, last I knew was en route returning to Shanghai from Qingdao. He would be good on this because his Chinese is so incredibly good that once he starts speaking it readily becomes apparent that he has been around. I THINK he will say that he does not think what you describe is racism at all, but rather, calculations being made as to who speaks Chinese and who does not. Steve walks into a restaurant and is handed a menu in Chinglish and so he asks for the Chinese one because it is clearer. He then gets charged the "Chinese" price, which, at least to a certain extent, means the discrimination was based on language skills, not race. The assumption on language skills is based on race so that itself is probably racism. Is this the equivalent of a cab driver not picking up an African-American. What would D'Sousa say about all this?

I will ask Jeremiah from Granite Studio to check in on this as well, because his Chinese is excellent. Indeed, my last meal in China right before heading to the airport was in a tiny Japanese restaurant in China with Steve and Jeremiah. I never have trouble ordering in Japanese restaurants anywhere in the world because I just order in Japanese.

1. I never said "the average customer is to blame for the average bad workplace condition." I never even said anything close to that.

2. I did not accuse you of implying all liberals are whiners. I accused you of implying all whiners (or at least those you perceive as whiners) are liberals.

3. I would love to see you respond to Tim Lamb's comments above.

@Dan

Don't have time to respond at length. I maintain that these differential pricing policies are fundamentally racist, because they cannot be separated to a lot of other things that foreigners have to deal with in China - both good and bad. I appreciate the fact that similar things happen in Turkey and elsewhere, but you could walk down an average street in Istanbul without being constantly reminded that you are not from there? And yes, speaking the language gives you a huge advantage, but it also means that you actually understand what people say behind your back at that restaurant after the figured that they can't cheat you. And it is not always nice things.

@Tim

I think I agree with you more than I thought I did.

@Joe

You were the one who brought up the question of local dialects and who they play a part in rip-offs. I responded by making an analogy to a local variety of an European language, and then you starting talking about the importance of learning standard English. Nice maneuver, but not very subtle.

To live in a world where everyone is treated on an equal basis without prejudice is a liberal goal. I don't believe it's a goal that everyone believes is attainable, or in the sense of "communist" China, even necessarily desired.

It is extremely important for Chinese to come up with excuses, no matter how far fetched, to "explain" their practice. Chinese must be seen to be doing no wrong, at least no worse than anyone. And if one example of problem in any other country, whether that example is appropriate or not, it justifies the practice in China.

For example, Viagra is sold at different prices in Canada than in US. That US and Canada are two different countries does not matter. It is a good enough reason for people getting difference prices in the same restaurant, for the same food, just because they are of different skin color, in China.

If Chinese customers are charged a higher price in a US restaurant than Italians, that would be consider a serious crime by China.

Racism is a loaded word and it has picked up quite a lot of baggage over the years that make it a difficult topic to discuss cross-culturally. We all perceive racism through the lenses of our culture; racism and its results are deeply embedded in American society in ways that it is not here in China – hence the reluctance to call a spade a spade in this dialogue. Often times it is simply not perceived in a country that is dominated by one ethnic group, and that is why it tends to be overt in China. To compound the issue American sensitivities sometimes makes Americans not want to elevate the discrimination they encounter to a label that in the States wields power to decimate careers – deservedly or undeservedly. Just ask Trent Lott or George Allen about the word ‘racist’.

I am far from any sort of expert on racism or its effects but the fact that this form of discrimination takes place in the open in China makes it easier for someone who speaks fluent Mandarin to combat its effects. And so Steve, with his level of fluency, can squelch much of the discrimination that he encounters here. But not all of it and not all of the time.

A Laowai could speak crazy Chinese in a dozen different accents and dialects but with a Laowai face you will never be completely accepted here and never really fit in as an Overseas Chinese could with the same language and cultural skills – the two menus restaurants is just a symptom of a greater issue. Racism is a mixed blessing in China for a White person. There are times it can be very useful to be White here and others when it is a burden. There are things I can accomplish in my work here that a local would find difficult and vice versa.

But let’s put this discussion into perspective: China no longer uses the FEC (foreign exchange currency) almost all of the parks and museums now have just one price list – and in English and Chinese it is the same. The police have been known to side with foreigners when the foreigner has been ripped-off. Outside of the tourist spots and in the more developed cities it is possible to live a very normal life in China. It is generally getting better here, but that doesn’t mean that just because it happens in every other country in the world that it is ok for it to happen here, nor does it mean that we should not strive for the unattainable whatever pigeon hole you choose to identify yourself with – liberal, conservative or ‘communist’.

Two menus is not racism.

1. It is common all over China for restaurants in tourist areas to have a separate menu for tourists. It is simply a way to take advantage of people who are not local in order to make some extra money. It is not discrimination against the tourists, it is just opportunism. Are the locals being racist when they do this? Of course not.

2. On a more serious level, the Chinese do not have a sense of race and they are not racist. Race is a Western concept that the Chinese would find difficult to understand. The Chinese have a concept of culture. Anyone who adopts Chinese culture is, by definition, Chinese. Race is based on genetics and blood and biological matters that simply have no meaning for the Chinese.

3. Further, the Chinese view North Americans and Europeans as people with a lot of money. As people with a lot of money, they see no reason that they should not pay more for things. It is a stereotype and it is irritating. However, it has nothing to do with race. A Taiwanese, Hong Kongese or Singaporean is just as likely to get the same treatment, as is an American born Chinese.

4. This kind of thing never happens in civilized cities like Zibo. This is because there are few foreigners and no tourists in Zibo. Economic opportunism exists only where the opportunity exists. For folks who are irritated by the constant effort to rip off the foreigners in Shanghai, I recommend a nice two year stint in Zibo or Shenyang or some other center of true civilization. Ask the average Dongbei person how they feel in Shanghai. The terrible way they are treated has nothing to do with race: it has to do with culture and a general aversion to outsiders of any kind.

This debate fizzled out most quickly. But I have to respond to this:

"Race is a Western concept that the Chinese would find difficult to understand."

Exactly whatis that based on? I am all ears.