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Innovation In China. Not Seeing It….

Posted in China Business, Recommended Reading

The European Chamber of Commerce just came out with a massive report on innovation in China and its conclusion is that there’s not nearly enough of it.  The report is entitled, “Dulling the Cutting-Edge: How Patent-Related Policies and Practices Hamper Innovation in China,”  and its intent is not to “slam” China, but to prod the Chinese authorities into effecting change to encourage innovation.

The study focuses not on the quantity of China innovation, but on its quality and it is in that arena where it finds China “overhyped” and sorely lacking:

While patents are exploding in China and certain innovation is also on the rise, patent quality has not proportionately kept up and in fact the overall strength of China’s actual innovation appears overhyped. Statistical analysis in this study not only reveals concerning trends in the quality of China’s patents at present, but suggests that while patent filings in China will likely continue to notably grow in the future, patent quality may continue to lag these numbers. In fact, projections in this study indicate there might be over 2.6 million less-than-“highest-quality” patents filed in China in 2015 alone, which is substantially more than estimated “highest-quality” patents filings in that year. With this in mind, and objectively considering its performance on additional innovation metrics, it is clear that China’s innovation ecosystem deserves a new type of scrutiny.

The core of this study is devoted to investigating, through in-depth on-the-ground research and analysis, significant patent-related reasons for China’s patent quality and related innovation shortcomings. In an effort to hone this investigation, the study focuses on key unaddressed institutional and regulatory issues most closely related to patent quality that can be practically remedied in the near future.

This study uncovers how a network of patent-related policies, other measures, and practices in China collectively hamper both patent quality and innovation at large. These dulling devices are categorised in terms of certain government-set patent targets and indicators (Chapter 2); policies and other measures meant to promote patents (Chapter 3); and rules and procedures for reviewing patent applications and those for enforcing patents (Chapter 4). Although given their intertwined nature it is not always possible to clearly separate their impacts on patent quality as distinct from those on innovation at large, these dulling devices collectively create a vicious cycle: they hamper patent quality which then hampers innovation and vice versa, i.e. hamper components of innovation which then hampers patent quality, which then again further hampers innovation).

About a year ago, I became obsessed with whether China has what it takes to become a developed country.  I side with those who believe it is relatively easy to go from poverty to mid-level simply by deftly handling/managing cheap labor, but that it is incredibly difficult to go from a mid-level income country to a developed one.  This jump is difficult because it takes more than low wages and hard work, it takes innovation because that is what is required to become an innovation economy and becoming an innovation economy is what is typically required these days to become a developed country.  The sad truth is that those who live in China and know the country well have serious doubts about its ability to make that big leap.  They cite to an educational system that preaches following the pack,not blazing new trails and a business ethos that focuses more on minor incremental change over big breakthroughs.   Bill Dodson, who wrote the absolutely excellent book, China Inside Out: 10 Irreversible Trends Reshaping China and its Relationship with the World, in a post entitled, “America to Become the Next Paris: Dumb Innovation Predictions,” sees China’s changes of becoming truly innovative as about the same as America becoming the next Paris.

Does China have what it takes to become a front-line innovator?

  • bystander

    patents aren’t a very good way to measure innovation anywhere, let alone in China.  many small but very innovative high-tech firms have a relatively small patent portfolio, but all it takes is a handful of critical patents that represent a real advance to have big value and impact.

    The first requirement for innovation is that you have to want to innovate, haha.  It’s a choice, and it causes you to manage your business in a certain way, to think about markets a certain way, to have a certain kind of time horizon for your ventures.  It’s this part that I don’t find in China.  The time horizons are short, and there is no taste or even tolerance for new directions in product or service design.  Take a simple case: suppose someone is starting a new restaurant in Beijing.  Suggest to them that they create a kind of restaurant that Beijing doesn’t yet have.  Most probably you’ll get a quizzical stare as though you had suggested that they throw their money out the window.  Ditto for music or film.  Suggest to someone making an original piece of music or a new film that they try to do something unique and out of the ordinary.  In all likelihood, they will think you’re nuts for making the suggestion.  This kind of advice, as a rule, won’t get a moment’s serious consideration.

    Until this most basic outlook about the possibility of actually succeeding while innovating changes, the rest of the question is moot.  it seems obvious to me on the face of it that there are enormous numbers of tremendously talented and potentially creative people in China, but until there is a basic change of heart about the possibility of innovating and the benefits that can come, it doesn’t much matter.

    • http://www.wageindicator.org fonstuinstra

      Patents is a special case in China: since everybody is under order to produce patents, inventions are often cut into the smallest particles, to get as many as patents as possible. Not a good measurement indeed. 

  • theoriginaljedi

    Absolutely. China has innovated, and will continue to innovate more. And anyone who argues otherwise is either not subjectively looking at the data, is not bilingual, or likely both. 

    My favorite example is Youku v. Youtube. Or the entire entertainment industry in China v. the United States. 

    Hollywood uses its gaggle of lawyers to beat down consumers, instead of innovating and giving consumers the product in a simplistic, demand driven way. The most recent example of this was the attempted internet legislation package, pushed through Congress primarily at the behest of Hollywood, as a means to curb what it sees as online piracy. Instead of Hollywood innovating a new pay scheme, and drawing the consumer to the theaters and to products with ideas, they scare the consumer into paying with jail time and lawsuits. This is an example of a failed market, where the negative externality of the U.S. legal system has disrupted and hindered the U.S. entertainment industry. 

    Youtube is useless. Unless you like how to’s, windows into some strange, irrelevant-personality, or cat videos, then Youtube is extremely boring. Why? Well, have you ever tried uploading a video only to have the sound removed after it violated copyright?

    Youku on the other hand is not only user content driver, it is company driver. It has  everything from Chinese soap operas to personal videos. With Youku’s recent merger with Tudou, we can only expect increased market acquisition. 

    Reexamine Youtube, now owned and bankrolled by Google, and never profitable. 

    The Chinese entertainment industry is growing at an unprecedented pace despite what is often cited as a lack of proper legal controls, and censorship. All the while, American media is on the decline. 

    When your legal system does not function as a business, then companies must either innovate or perish. 

    Already, China has the world’s largest consumer base of internet users. Already, China has the world’s largest market of cell phone users. At a time when Samsung is being chased out of America by Apple’s lawyers, exactly where do you think Samsung’s patent infringing, but superior products are going to go? 

    And the answer is obvious, China. *Cite Apple’s decline in revenue in China, despite the increase in market revenue from smart phone sales. 

    There is no doubt that China needs a clearer, more savvy form of inherent innovation, reinforced by a reliable legal code. Yet, those things are currently being put in place. 

      

    China has a torrent of students studying at prestigious universities worldwide, that upon returning understand and echo the need for more innovative and less rote based learning. The mere presence of this outcry across academia in China reflects that the population is well aware and actively prepared to correct the problem. 

    For instance, ten years ago no one could name a Chinese brand. Chances are you are now using at least a couple in your daily life. Haier, Lenovo? Just look at the increase in the number of Chinese companies on the fortunate 500 list, even despite the continued torrid performance of the worldwide economy. 

    And that trend is only continuing. Like most predictions concerning China’s downfall, the idea that China lacks innovation, will also pass. These cries are mainly due to a language barrier, a data barrier, Western impatience, and a severe misunderstanding of development economics. 

    Remember that many people once thought Japan could not innovate, and then Toyota, an ‘inferior brand,’ demolished the American auto makers. Hamsters? Korea used to be another source of terrible products, hence why their vehicles always had excellent warranties. And now, Kia? 

    And if you read the report you linked, it does not say China isn’t innovating, or China won’t innovate, or that China will fail in the long-run because it cannot innovate, conversely it says quite the opposite, “To be sure, it is clear that China possesses great innovation potential, however, overall, China still lags behind many developed countries in terms of innovation at large and quality patents in particular, let alone breakthrough innovation and highest-quality patents.” 

    Essentially, China is innovating, will innovate, and will continue to innovate with increased frequency, and here are suggestions for how to increase the rate of innovation, and its quality in order to approach what is considered equilibrium levels of innovation in developed nations. 

    Thomas Edison worked on over 3,000 variations of the incandescent lamp, before he invented the one version that changed the world. Edison was a known patent machine, with over 1,093 registered, but only three of those patents ever proved profitable. That is 1,090 useless patents, from the father of American invention. To argue that a vast increase in filed patents, even of moderate quality, does not reflect on an increasingly hospitable atmosphere towards innovation, is to defame the very nature of invention… of innovation. Do not be a dullard, be an Edison. Innovation in China is inevitable. 

    Oh and finally, I am not a fan of Bill Dodson. His analysis reads like it is written by a bigot, and not an economist doing market projections. He is not an Edison, he is without a doubt a dullard. I suggest you look to Arthur Kroeber, from the Brookings Institute and Dragonomics. He, unlike Dodson, is an Edison in his field. 

    • bystander

      You are offering up the entertainment industry generally, and the film industry in particular, as an example of successful innovation by China and failed innovation by the West?   good heavens.  Makes me wonder if you are talking about the same kind of innovation that Dan is.

      • theoriginaljedi

        First, I am not suggesting that Chinese films are more innovative. I think we can safely say that creativity is a rather difficult thing to quantify. And by volume, China has done nearly as excellent a job promoting and encouraging the artist, as oppossed to the business.

        But that is where China is quickly surpassing the United States. Many U.S. industries no longer function as proper markets. Lawsuits have become a way to make money. Therefore, instead of innovating new pay schemes, innovating better software design, innovating more creative platforms for customer delivery, American media companies have basically decided that they will instead use legal means to achieve profits, as oppossed to innovating their businesses in a way that is demand side driven.

        Thus the Chinese consumer benefits, and the American consumer loses. Thus, Chinese media companies are increasingly profitable, while American media companies in the same area cannot innovate into profit.

        Have you ever watched movies in China? Basically, almost everything is available online, or for a small fee, a fraction of the cost you would pay in the United States. The Chinese online medium has become like basic cable, available to all. In the U.S. none of this content is available for free, it trickles down to the consumer months after it is released, and it is abundantly clear that should the consumer reach out for this content, they will be punished.

        As well, software development in China is something to be admired. Have you used the Youku app for the iPhone? It is simplistic, beautifully designed, entertaining, and a completely superior product to the YouTube app.

        Chinese people know this. It is why when they come to the United States, even being bilingual, they do not suddenly become enamored with YouTube. Because Youku is better. Chinese media companies are actively out innovating their American media counterparts by using consumer driven, demand driven schemes to deliver media content.

        We need to qualify that a common misconception about innovation, is that you must reinvent to wheel from scratch. Edison did not invent the lightbulb, ford did not invent the car, innovation is not always creating an IP out of thin air, most often it is borrowing a base idea and then improving upon it. And China is actively doing this at every level of their society.

        I am not a lawyer. I am an economist by training. When I examine innovation I do not look to patents, which are a rather bad qualifier for innovation in a market, I look to what is referred to as the K value. K or total factor productivity, is one of the common values in the GDP equation. It seeks to quantify the average growth of innovation in your nation. It was a value that America had a significant lead in, yet that lead is quickly faltering. America’s K value as a relation to our overall GDP has been in steady freefall.

        Whereas this value in China is on the rise.

        So, while no one van argue that China innovates more than the West, it is also a fallacious argument to propose that China lacks innovation.

        We need to open our eyes a little wider. Recall, that China just finished manning it’s own space station in orbit. The Chinese are on the innovation bandwagon. Let’s be realistic about what they can possibly achieve, as opposed to limiting the scope of how we apply the term innovation in a way the makes the West appear to be the center of the Universe.

        China has innovated, China will innovate, China will continue to innovate more.

        And yes, the U.S. legal system hampers innovation (just talk to a U.S. inventor).

        • bystander

          Where to begin, haha?  First, I am a U.S. inventor.  I have a dozen patents in computer-related technologies.  If it weren’t for the legal system of the US, there would be no such thing as those patents.  I don’t know a single soul in the United States, including the many engineers and scientists I know who have spent time working in China, who would trade the legal system of the United States for that of China when it comes to innovation.  All of them, I mean 100% percent, not a single exception, agree that the failure to enforce intellectual property rights in China is lethal to innovation.  All of them.  Now, you may say that you disagree; fine.  But you are dreaming if you think that U.S. inventors are going to provide confirmation for your notions.

          I’m am, as I write this, lying in bed in a Chinese hotel.  There is what looks like cable service, but it’s free!  All the latest Hollywood blockbusters, 24 hours a day, free for the watching.  Super duper.  Yes, I know that in the United States (where the films were made) this content is not free.  It’s not free to make the movies either.  Copyright blah blah blah.  I’m talking to the wall I’m sure.  Anyway, again, if you are offering all this flagrant disregard for intellectual property as a *good* sign for innovation in China, then all I can say is best of luck to Chinese innovators; they’re gonna need it.

          • Theoriginaljedi

            Again, you misunderstand. I do not seem to understand why people must either choose one system or another. Analysis doesn’t necessitate choosing a winner.

            China has structural flaws in it’s patent system. I have said this above. But, we in the Unuted States must not underestimate the threat that Chinese companies pose to our service and invention sector. We did so with Japan, ditto for Korea, and U.S. labor continues to pay the price for shotty economic analysis.

            I speak Mandarin. I have a degree in economics and Chinese studies. I am currently a graduate student. I have done and continue to do business in China. I have layed in the same Chinese hotels you have.

            But here is the qualifying difference. You are a software engineer. I am a market analyst. I also have a background in development economics.

            There is a pretty well known formula for what China is going through. It begins with infastructure, continues to labor, and eventually moves into services. The new bay area bridge was designed and manufactured in China.

            Do not underestimate the Chinese competition, and the willingness of China to move it’s IP forward. Because it is, and it will.

        • ChinaUnplugged

          Seriously, your ability to distinguish between innovation and copying and updating existing technologies, products and concepts is stunningly non-existent.  Are you Shaun Rein in disguise?

          • theoriginaljedi

            Read the definition of invention. 

    • sinofil

       Youku v. Youtube. We are talking about innovation. Who came first?.  Innovation is not about copying something that has already been invented

      • theoriginaljedi

        I addressed that in the above comment. And your assertion is completely, totally incorrect.

        As I stated above, Ford did not invent the car, Edison not the lightbulb; both took existing inventions and improved upon them. Invention does not necessarily necessitate creating an idea from scratch.

        What matters is the expansion of total factor productivity. Not the invention of new IP.

        Humanity would be no where, literally, if man had sought to redesign the wheel everytime we wished to climb aboard a vehicle.

        Youku took Youtubes model, and innovated a better product through introducing content via television series, news media, in addition to user content. YouTube, primarily due to legal restrictions, has stuck to a user contet driven model, that has proved to be unsuccessful in the long run, as well an unprofitable. So, Youku is a superior product, and they innovated their way to superiority.

        Here is the definition of invention:

        An invention is a unique or novel device, method, composition or process. It may be an improvement upon a machine or product, or a new process for creating an object or a result.

        Notice an improvement. This is the largest problem with the West’s failure to recognize China’s inventions. China is infamous for taking products, improving upon them, and thus innovating. However, most of the products China creates are for the domestic market, are geared towards Mandarin speakers, and thus the West fails to be able to properly quantify China’s level of innovation.

        • Ken Hansen

           haha, the acceptance of the copy paste innovation culture, and the good enough mentality, is exactly what makes the difference baby

    • ChinaUnplugged

      Seriously Jedi, which ministry in Beijing is paying you to post replies like this all over Western articles about China?

      • theoriginaljedi

        This comment proves exactly why the United States in such danger. We feel like our service sector is completely insulated from Chinese competition, simply because we are so much more brilliant, and our legal system so much more developed. 

        When you take the long view, do not underestimate the competition. If China does prove to be innovation unable, then you company loses nothing by projecting that Chinese competition could potentially begin to move into your market. 

        If we streamline our legal system now, and adjust our own deficiencies, as well as insuring our labor force becomes more educated, and has more room for business creation, then U.S. invention will continue unabated, and we do not risk losing our edge. 

        But, if we continue to look down at China (and Brazil, and India, and South Africa), assuming that their culture will someone inhibit them from developing inventive talent, then we risk not only the loss of our manufacturing sector (which already occurred), but then also the loss of sectors of our service sector. 

        Not to mention, service pays less than manufacturing. So, poor economic insight and terrible laws that are punitive instead of being incentivizing have already lead millions of American jobs overseas permanently. Middle class America has been gutted because our government never saw the threat coming. We cannot afford to make a similar mistake again. 

        China is innovating. They will continue to innovate. And that level of innovation will only increase. Plan for it accordingly. 

        The link Dan posted was to a document published by the European Chamber of Commerce. 

        Here is a very recent link to a report by the U.N., showing that the United States is actually slipping in innovation. They list a number of reasons. 

        China on the other hand, (and China still has a long way to go), is gaining. 

        And mind you a few Mandarin speaking nations / areas are already ahead of us, including Hong Kong and Singapore. 

        I am not making this stuff up. Ignorance is the only thing I am seeking to correct. 

        http://www.globalinnovationindex.org/gii/index.html

  • http://www.inpraiseofchina.com/ Godfree Roberts

    Curl up with Joseph Needham’s 24-volume history of Chinese technology, then wonder no more. They invented everything under conditions that explicitly discouraged invention. Lately they’ve invented a way to neutralize $12 billion aircraft carriers with $1 million weapons, which suggests both ingenuity and a sense of humor.
    And the stuff about rote memorization is a canard. First, memorization is a much-under appreciated and perfectly legitimate learning technique abandoned by the West out of sheer laziness. The capacity to hold in memory (the human equivalent of RAM) is a major skill in all fields of endeavor

    • theoriginaljedi

      Great suggested reading. 

    • Dan (another Dan)

      You’re right. 

      Rote-memorization is necessarily in learning the fundamentals. That’s how people learn the basics of any language, art and skill. I understand the frustrations when people over-emphasize it and ignore anything abstract, but I really don’t get it when some people try to dismiss rote-memorization in its entirety. 

    • Mrrullebol

      Right on!

  • http://www.executiveboard.com/ Michael T. McCune

    Hi Dan, 

    This may be an exercise in peeling back the onion, but it may be useful to your readers if you explore the quantity vs. quality of Chinese patents by way of looking at how the party scores performance leaders at research universities and SOEs.  I don’t claim direct insight into party workings or access to a data set, but I’ve heard more than once that the Party, seeking innovation, placed patent filings on the scorecard of political leaders at these institutions.  They got what they wished for, and then realized maintaining patents, irrespective of quality, still comes with a cost.  So the scorecard was changed to reward the proven economic value of an institution’s patent portfolio.  Certainly a better metric.This brought around another issue – the structure for sharing/rewarding the creation of valuable IP.  I don’t know where it stands now, but last I looked the research universities did not have an economic reward system in place that would provide researchers/academics incentive to innovate.Although the private capital market is happy to back researchers with unpublished ideas (or even JV with university investment funds).  Still, that means $s only flow to ideas whose impact can be commercially articulated.  Kind Regards,

    Michael

  • http://www.wageindicator.org fonstuinstra

    It’s an interesting debate, and much depends on how you define innovation. Most authors just start creaming about the lack of innovation, without trying to define the term. A good book to take into account is “The Idea Hunter”, co-authored by Bill Fischer from IMD (and former dean of CEIBS). He is not really optimistic about recent developments in China, but argues that most innovation starts from a cut-and-paste level China is famous for. I keep the option open that China might still surprise us.

  • Dan (another Dan)

    Um, I made a comment earlier but it wasn’t published. Looking back, it probably didn’t make sense, so I revised it. Here is what I want to say now, just three things.

    1.) Innovation is something that is quite hard to generalize. 

    The work that goes into making products and services more accessible and profitable is very sophisticated. If you all want a sound analysis of innovation, we have to be very particular and look at specific industries (ex. chemical industry) and the different segments of that industries (ex. the R&D of making new chemicals or the logistics of the chemical industry ). China is good and somewhat creative in one end but not so in the other. 

    2.)  Innovation is mostly reactive rather than proactive. 

    Contrary to what many people say, having challenges is going to drive people to be more innovative rather than having little or no obstacles facing them. Consumer demands, limitations due to environment, logistics or the authorities, the competition; all these factors can push people to do many interesting things. With this perspective, than YES,  China has what it takes to be, at the very least, “A DECENT INNOVATOR”. However, since innovation is greatly influenced by the local cultures, what works in China may not translate well for the world. They might be able to do well in certain regions but not necessarily everyone around the globe. 

    3.) Innovation does NOT necessarily mean discovering or inventing original-fundamental-ground-breaking stuff.

     I think many many many people get confused about that, even the journalists-scholars-and bloggers who report on this topic.  
    A society can still be very innovative with xxx product(s) or service(s) even if they didn’t discover or invent the xxx product(s) or service(s) themselves. 

    • Dan (another Dan)

      I should add one more thing. There is this popular notion that for innovation to succeed, there has to be people going against the grain, that assertive individuals need to “rebel” against the establishment. Basically to think outside the box and take charge. 

      More or less, that’s true but it’s only part of the whole story. There is a lot of teamwork involved to make these things work. A big team of people, each doing their own specialized part. 

      A handful of people will get that opportunity to get their ideas tested and truly get to think outside the box. It is those handful of people who have the privilege of being both a leader and rebel.  Most people will be performing a long list of duties just to assist that handful of individuals who get to showoff their ideals. Most people will be doing work that’s repetitive and tedious.  There’s chances here and there that the people doing the grunt work will get to use their creativity, but most of the time it’s just following orders and completing the said tasks. Nonetheless you need those people to do that stuff, or else there might be a lot of problems. 

  • Guillaume Bog

    I work in a company considered innovative (Douban.com) and from this experience I have to somewhat agree that there are some structural barriers to genuine innovation in China. For instance, some of my most imaginative colleagues, who are really good in their field and open minded, who would say when they agree or don’t, when considering a “new way to do something”, they will first consider if it has been done before, and if not, will assume it is a bad idea (“if it was a good one, someone would already have done it”).

    In the West, a new idea is good by default. Good by default and bad by default are two irrational thought. An idea, new or not, need to be carefully pondered by itself.

    I think most people forget that it takes a lot of time to actually change the main trends in a society. Japan had to work hard for 20 years before being innovative…

  • Twofish

    This is crazy.  The problem is not with innovation in China, the problem is when will people figure out that the patent system as it now exists is killing innovation in the United States.  Let me tell you what I’ve seen in China.

    * lots and lots of electric vehicles – The electric car program has been something of a dud, but one thing that China has figured out is how to build electric vehicles.  If you go to your typical southern Chinese city, you’ll see that electric bikes have really taken off, and that there is are a huge number of electric three wheeled carts.  What people have figured out is that you don’t want to build an electric car the same way that you build a gasoline cart.  You use the slowness of the vehicle to your advantage.  Because the vehicles are slow you can have them run in the bike lanes and let people drive them without licenses.  You can then make the frame out of lightweight cloth or plastic and with these light vehicles, you can run them all day and charge them at night when the electricity is cheap.

    * solar powered hot water heaters – Most every house in southern China has a solar water heater on the roof.  Free hot water.

    * electric gadgets you can’t get in the US – If you go to the electronics markets you can get dongles that you plug into an HDMIsocket, the dongle has a wifi connection so you have an instant online television system.  And then there is this pocket movie camera.  It’s about the sign of USB stick.  You can take video, plug it into any computer, download the video, and then press a button, and the light inside will project the thing on a wall.  Every time I go to Shamshuipo or Huaqiang Bei Lu, I see something new and different.  People are doing incredible things with cell phones, computers, and electronics.  If you go to Shenzhen you’ll see people selling computer chips on the streets the way fruit vendors sell bananas.

    * and that’s not even mentioning the high-speed rail.  The trains are nice and convenient.  Start off in one province have an afternoon meeting and then zip back for dinner.  The amount of infrastructure spending means that a lot of stuff is pretty new.  I know someone that works at a power plant, and right now they are just shutting down all of their old generators and replacing them with brand new ones with better environmental technology.

    The thing about a lot of those things is that you don’t see those in the US because of lousy IP laws.  With ten people, you can start making money assembling cell phones and creating electronics gadgets, and because the competition is ferocious, people are always looking for something a little new and different.  Any new idea that you have is going to get copied very quickly, and this puts tremendous pressure to come up with new and better stuff.  The rate at which cell phone prices have plummeted is unreal.

    You just couldn’t open a cell phone factory in the US with ten people because you would get sued to death.  The same is true with the electric vehicles and hot water heaters.  The places that are making them are mom and pop shops (it’s not that hard to attach a battery to a bicycle frame), and because they are small and nimble, they are coming up with new ideas rather than hiring lawyers to sue each other.  One of the latest ideas is that someone has figured out that you can put an umbrella stand on an electric bike.  Speaking of umbrellas, someone has come up with a better latch for those that I haven’t seen in the US.

    Also, as far as people preferring the US system.  A lot of people have just given up on trying to make a career in science and engineering in the US and have ended up in China.  Success in the US means dealing with a ton of lawyers and MBA’s, and science and engineering skill is just not appreciated.  There is a huge and massive brain drain of Chinese scientists and engineers who are just heading to where the grass is greener.  Yes having weak IP rules means that you have to work much harder since any good idea that you have is going to be copied in a month, but in the end it’s better for society, because people can mix and match other people’s ideas and come up with something new and distinctive, and in that end that attracts people that want to see what they can do with science and engineering.  Like me.

    And I think software patents are totally absurd.  Judge Richard Posner agrees, and maybe at some point people will figure out how silly it is to spend so much money on lawyers rather than scientists and engineers.  But that will take a few years, and in the mean time, it’s better for me to be somewhere that people don’t have to put up with this nonsense.

    • theoriginaljedi

      Exactly what I have been saying below. I’ve gotten lots of hate comments. Good luck.

      • bystander

        hate comments?  haha.  I disagreed with you (as I disagree with twofish), but surely disagreement doesn’t automatically rise to the level of hatred!

        software patents might be absurd, or not.  Personally, with so many electronic devices these days constituted of programmable logic (FPGAs and other embedded devices with firmware), I don’t see a hard line between software and hardware patents.  But isn’t it a bit silly to argue that the right solution is to have strong patent laws but to flout them?  That’s the situation in China at present.  If the Chinese had decided to take a systematic and principled stand against the notion of patents, then it would not have created a patent system of its own and begun driving its own science and engineering community to issue a flood of patents in China and abroad.  Twofish writes as though he is coming to China to escape the notion of patents.  He will be badly disappointed if he “invents” something that has already been patented in China, especially if the patent holder is Chinese and is in a good position to enforce vis-a-vis the legal system to enforce the patent — he is no safer from lawsuits here than in the United States.   It will not be long, at the current rate, before China holds more patents than any other country in the world.

        Let’s take twofish’s cell phone example.  A handful of guys in China can set up shop and make a GSM cellphone without paying licensing fees for any of the patented GSM technology; ditto for CDMA.  But what would happen if those same guys set up shop and create a copy of a Huawei router or a Huawei handset; specifically in the case where Huawei has patents on what is being copied?   Are you sure it would be a cakewalk for them and that they could sell their gizmo on the cheap with no legal repercussions?  Are you sure that it would be regarded as a “good thing” by Huawei and the Chinese government, on the grounds that patents are onerous and hinder innovation?  Is that what Huawei wants in the way of treatment of its patents inside the United States?

        The thing is, the current selective and piecemeal enforcement environment is going to break down as more Chinese companies try to climb up the value chain.  Something has to give.  Up to now the patents and copyrights that have been routinely flouted were predominately foreign-owned.  That is changing.

        I’ve taught at American engineering universities, and have had lots of Asian and Chinese grad students.  It seems to me that they returned to China primarily because they thought they had much better job prospects and not because they found the state of intellectual property law or the environment for innovation superior to the West.  In fact I’ve never heard the latter claim even one time from such a student.

        My “hate comments” (haha) toward theoriginaljedi were of course not hate comments at all, but rather incredulity at his claim that the Chinese film industry is innovative whereas the West is failing in this department.  This kind of standing of the facts on their head in order to make a tortured argument doesn’t really help the discussion in my opinion.  A certain amount of common sense is called for.  If China has gained a reputation primarily as a copier of others’ technology, it’s for a good reason.  It’s silly to twist yourself into knots explaining why that’s actually a form of innovation in disguise.  in my opinion.

    • Dan (another Dan)

      Nowadays, the trend for many people going into STEM careers is to pursue the vocational training educational route rather than the full college/graduate degree. A lot of people are aiming to collect as many certifications and licenses specializing in certain skill sets. It’s been this way for quite some time, but more people are pursuing this route. The standards of these specialized training skill sets are gradually getting more higher and sophisticated each year, so in several ways, a lot of these folks are more sought after than people with only a college degree. More job positions are available for them than people with doctoral degrees. Also, in some cases, people with college degrees are getting similar pay grades and job duties/titles as people without degrees. In turn, after many people get their college/graduate degree and job, a lot of them go back to school to get training in these specialized skill sets. The STEM fields are complex and ever-evolving where you simply can’t stop studying or training. 
      I don’t know how much of that trend has to do with the legal environment, but it’s just how the job scene is like currently. I read that in China, there’s a somewhat similar situation, with people with vocational training having higher employment rate than people with college degrees.If you all think about it, for good innovation to flourish, you’re going to need more of these people with specialized skill sets. They deal more directly with all aspects of making, ensuring, upgrading, and delivering goods and services. Many ideas will come from them than people who are looking at it from the outside. 

    • Ken Hansen

      Let’s imagine that somebody in China was able to create something truly innovative, shouldn’t this clever guy has the right to obtain a patent to prevent let’s from copying his true unique idea? It’s easy to complain when you did not invent the wheel

  • Holidayinng

    China will innovate like Japan, incrementally and by copy-and-localize.  Some of this is cultural.  Can you imagine Zheng He taking off into the open ocean like Columbus, with the prospect of never coming back?  Zheng He explored safely, along the coast.  That’s Chinese innovation.

  • theoriginaljedi

    Enjoy this:

    A recent, 2012 United Nations report on innovation that does not use patents as the sole measure.

    http://www.globalinnovationindex.org/gii/index.html

    The U.S. has fallen. It is now behind Singapore and Hong Kong (both Mandarin speaking nations).

    China is a good deal behind, but catching up.

  • theoriginaljedi

    Enjoy this:

    A recent, 2012 United Nations report on innovation that does not use patents as the sole measure.

    http://www.globalinnovationindex.org/gii/index.html

    The U.S. has fallen. It is now behind Singapore and Hong Kong (both Mandarin speaking nations). 

    China is a good deal behind, but catching up. 

  • bystander

    Well, it seems you insist on taking this personally, and making the debate personal, so I’ll bow out with this post.

    I read the report you posted — China gets very good marks indeed, and will certainly rise further in the future.  So congratulations to them!  For what it’s worth, I have lived in China a good long time, am married to a Chinese woman (and artist), and have many friends who are Chinese — life long friends.  I’m in no sense rooting against China.  My opinion is that IP enforcement in China is not what it is in the U.S., and that is hurting Chinese innovators.  You write that you “disagreed with (my) assertion that the U.S. is … superior in its patent framework”  Fair enough.  Simililarly you disagree that “U.S. firms are actually being more successful in long run innovation”.  Fair enough.  I think it’s pretty clear — not hidden in any special sense — what innovations have come from U.S. firms in the past and to date.  As for the future long run, I guess we’ll have to wait and see, no?over and out,-bystander

  • Twofish

    One thing about the internet is that if you say I’ve never met someone that believes X, you’ll meet one.  Personally, I think that in many ways China has a much better environment for innovation than the United States, and as far as laws, China has so far avoided the mistakes that the US has made in crafting patent law.  Patents are killing innovation in the United States.  You can look at the writings of Richard Posner, who happens to be a US Federal judge for the details.

    Also, it’s a bad idea to ask a hypothetical question without knowing the answer.  For various reasons (i.e. China issues fewer bad patents, Chinese lawsuits are pretty cheap, the companies involved are pretty small, developing telecommunications has government support), I do not think that Huawei would be able to kill a smart phone company in Shenzhen.  It’s important to note (and I think that everyone realizes this) that Huawei and ZTE are *not* industry leaders as far as consumer cell phones.  Because they are large state-owned enterprises, they just can’t move as fast and innovate as quickly as the tiny private shops in Shenzhen.  Fortunately, the government realizes this, and if the SOE’s tried to use patents to kill innovation the way that US companies routinely do, the Chinese government would block this, and if they didn’t the large number of people that they put out of business and who would riot would focus their mind on it.

    The selective and piecemeal enforcements of patents is *not* going to change any time soon, because the Chinese government is pragmatic enough to see that weak enforcement of patents is *creating* jobs and innovation.  You can take a walk in the giant electronics markets to see this.  The large companies SOE’s in China aren’t terribly interested in enforcing patents against small shops, because the tiny cell phone makers in Shenzhen buy Huawei chips, and the patent enforcement efforts basically involve putting up big banners with slogans on them.

    Finally, it’s not a good idea to say “let’s just see what happens.”  The type of stuff that you are seeing in Shenzhen when an inventor goes into their garage and comes up with a new idea and makes a decent living from it, is what the US used to be based on, and I’m not seeing this now.  I’ve provided some specific examples of “Chinese innovation that goes beyond copying”.  In the last week, I’ve seen that the shops in the electronics marts are starting to sell pastel-colored computer cables which happen to be very useful both because it looks cool but also because it let’s you avoid cable spaghetti.  This sort of innovation is happening in China.  It’s not happening in the US, and people really need to seriously ask why.

     

    • Tim

      If only it was about patents and laws then I might agree with you. But until China’s system allows the necessary freedoms required for creativity to exist, innovation will continued to be stymied in this country. 

  • adam

    @ originaljedi Imagine you invented a new product, never seen before. You spend all your life savings and blood and tears in order to develop the invention. You apply for a patent only to realise that another person has copied it. How would you feel? In addition you can’t do anything about it other than cry and find a rope so you can hang yourself with it. Knowing that everything you have has been taken away from you. That is what’s going on in China.

    Compare that with american intellectual and copyright law..

    Imagine you invented a new product, never seen before. You spend all your life savings and blood and tears in order to develop the invention. You apply for a
    patent only to realise that another person has copied it. You can take your case to court and the person who unlawfully copy your invention would either go to jail, be fined and forced to pay compensation or both while still be forced to pull the product out of market. Your invention is protected and it is yours because you are the one who put in the effort to come up with the idea.

    That’s the difference @ originaljedi.

    In China the main mentality is, why innovate or invent if we can just copy from someone else? In China competition is based on copy the successful one and make their products cheaper while not better.

    On the other hand in America the mentality is, how to make something better than the competition. In america you can’t copy and you have to innovate and produce better and better product.

    I am a Chinese Indonesian and I have lived for 37 years in Indonesia. I am covered with western style clothing from my head to toe right up to my underwear. I am writing this comment on a tablet, using internet, battery, electricity, plastic and glass invented by western countries. In the middle of writing is I got hungry and cooked myself food on a stove and eat it using spoon and forks invented by westerners. I realised that I need to go to the toilet and take a dump on a toilet bowl with flushing invented by westerners. Even your clothing pegs that you use to dry your clothes and cranes that you use to build your sky scrapers are invented by Australians.

    Most of my things are made in china yet none of them are invented in china…even my tables, chairs and beds are western style and designed. The only reason that they are made in china is because of cheap labour on china. Cheap only they are value less because there are more of them in china.

    All of this under the consideration that even with all of western countries combined, the population number doesn’t even reach 1.4 billion. To take it even further, countries like united states, Canada, australia have existed for far less time than China.

    So tell where is china invented products in my house? I go to the shops outside and all I see are huawei cheap mobile phones and cheap Chinese cars….all of which are western inventions made cheaper…

    Oh don’t forget..when your mother or mother get sick…who invented those pharmaceutical products and medical equipments including syringes and scalpel blades…

    Where is China…