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The China-Georgetown Brawl. Sometimes A Cigar Is Just A Cigar.

By Dan Harris on Posted in Events

I long ago promised myself that if I ever receive five or more emails (or other communication) on a topic, I will write on it. I am disheartened to say that I just received number five asking my views on the China-Georgetown basket-brawl.

I say disheartened because I see this brawl as a complete non-issue.

I have played thousands of basketball games, watched maybe three times that number, coached my fair share, and read tons of books on it, including, maybe most importantly, John Feinstein’s book, The Punch: One Night, Two Lives, and the Fight That Changed Basketball Forever.

All this convinces me that pushing and shoving and getting angry and even sometimes fighting are part and parcel of basketball. I am not condoning fighting in basketball, but I am saying that it happens and when it does it isn’t political or cultural or based on a hatred that necessarily goes beyond the basketball court. 

I do not think his fight in any way proves either that China is incapable of playing fair or that it hates the United States. I am not saying either of these things are true or untrue, but I am saying that it does not sense to use this fight to advance one’s position on these things. It was a fight during a tense basketball game. That’s it. No conclusions warranted. That’s why I didn’t write about it until now. 

Do you agree?

  • Andeli

    This is a non-issue. When QPR brawled with the China U23 in football ( by far the best sport ever) people where just fined and everybody moved along. Still in football mass fights are not uncommon on or off the pitch. This just never got to be political. Is there something in the air between the US and China these days ?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/q/qpr/6341485.stm

  • http://solongandthanx.blogspot.com/ Mark

    I Agree! Spot on! This is just a basketball fight. And a fight is just a fight…nothing more.

  • nulle

    I disagree. if you get the details, the Chinese PLA Army squad started the fight, then the Hoyas players fought back.,,then the full brawl and the gang style beatdown of the Hoyas players (some PLA players using chairs.) Hoyas players picked up chairs to defend themselves after being hit with one. Then the crowd thew bottles and items at the Hoyas players. George Thompson III (coach) told the teams to head for the locker room and get out of dodge…
    (you are welcome to watch the videos and accounts of US journalists on the Internet.)
    the fight is uncalled for…but the chinese PLA Daiyu Rockets are clearly thugs…I don’t see NBA players using chairs as weapons and kicking players when they are down.

  • Jeffrey

    I like Basketbrawl…..

  • Jeffrey

    I heard that the next US college basketball team to visit China will include Mike Tyson.

  • NUD

    I agree completely. We all have many grounds to criticize China, but this is not one of them.

  • http://www.seiferflatow.com Charlotte Attorney

    I don’t know what to think about this, I mean, instead of trying to separate the 2 players who were fighting, all the chinese players jumped on the american one… It doesn’t usually happen like that..

  • observer

    Charlotte Attorney – Yes, it seemed a bit strange the way it looked like the Georgetown players were being chased around. Something seemed odd about the intensity of the Chinese player from the bench who ran out to stomp on the Georgetown player on the ground. Unfortunately, there seems to be only one video that only shows a few seconds of what happened. Without seeing the context of the whole game, it is impossible to know whether there were many cheap shots earlier in the game or not.

  • Shaq Attack

    I think you need to change your five email rule, this article is old news.

  • AO Kelan

    It was just a fight and I agree it does not have political ramifications. But i don’t think that means we should just ignore how brutal the Chinese team was. Much more so than in a typical basketball fight.

  • Nathan

    The use of chairs as weapons, kicking of players when they’re already on the ground, several attackers on one guy at once, the crowd throwing bottles. You don’t have to be a China basher to note that it reflects poorly on this country. The behaviour in the video is disgusting and disgraceful.
    Having said that, I don’t play or watch a lot of basketball.

  • Chris

    I have to disagree here Dan. I have played rugby for more than 20 years all over Asia. The last 6 years have been here in China. Rugby is played to a certain code, our sport has our own culture, especially at the amateur level of club rugby that we play as expats.
    In China, rugby is only played via the state sports system. As it is managed by the state sports system, there is no such thing as ‘grass roots” rugby in China. The players who play it were “chosen” by the state due to their particular physical/mental fortitude. This is why predominantly most Chinese rugby players come from Shandong, the wheat growing region in China. Shandong ren are considered to have a suitable build for rugby.
    Also, this is why predominantly, most Chinese rugby players in China come from China Agriculture University. This is the “farm” system for the national rugby program. These rugby players are scouted in their youth to have special athletic ability. When they get to University stage, they are picked out of the huge pool of “athletes with potential”. They are offered full ride scholarships “to play rugby” for China. They then immerse themselves in what is basically a professional rugby program for the next 5 years. They eat, sleep and breath rugby. At the end of school, the best of the best are representing China.
    As can been seen with other sports figures in China, it is ingrained in them to succeed for the greatness of China (as opposed to the love of the sport and the passion of competition). Yao Ming was the product of state sponsored genetics test to procude a tall basketball players. Both his mother and father were tall basketball players representing China and were “encouraged” to procreate to make a super player (and that they did). Yao’s future was set before his parents even knew it.
    The point I am getting at is there is a completely different complexity to a sportsman in China. A Chinese athlete, in his whole person, is China when he is competing against non-Chinese. He is compelled to win to defend China’s honor. Even at the “social” level of sport that I play at. When playing non-Chinese, they must defeat the foreigner to show the superiority of Chinese and the system that gave them all this glory. (of course every athlete representing his/her nation has feelings of pride in that representation and are compelled to preform to his/her best, but in China it goes one, or more, steps further than that. It is the difference between patriotism and nationalism)
    I know this is hard to conceptualize, but when you are faced with it time and time again as I have been on a rugby pitch, you see it all the time. Whenever we play Chinese sides, it almost always ends up in a punch up (especially when they are losing).
    Their regard for sport is much different than ours. There was even an incident recently where a sports official scolded an athlete who brought glory to the motherland because the athlete thanked her parents first before thanking the party for her success and glory. Or take Li Na’s disdain for the national sports authorities.
    I believe this permeated on the floor that night in Beijing. Here was a professional Chinese basketball team owned by the Chinese military made up of soldiers playing up against a bunch of amateur American college kids. Chinese honor was on the line. Shame to the motherland could not be contemplated. And deep into the 4th quarter when this amateur American team was still in the game (tied 64/64, despite the fact G’town having 27 “fouls” called on them. Officiating, that’s a whole other story) and looked to win the game, the pressure got to much for the professional military players and their frustrations got to them and the incident happened.
    This incident does say a lot about China and America. This is not just a friendly game. To the Chinese it is the restoration of the 5000 years of continuous civilization and the return of the motherland to its rightful place atop all the barbarian tribes of the world. A place that was unfairly usurped from China 200 years ago when the Barbarians took advantage of China’s generosity. All Chinese, lead by the party, are working towards restoring that glory at all costs.
    There is no such thing as win-win in China. WIn-win is just a panda in Chengdu.
    You have been warned

  • DaMn

    I have to agree with Chris. I am quite surprised at the lackadaisical attitude toward what happened at that game with the Vice President of the United States in town for a goodwill tour. Of course it is ridiculous to make radical conclusions about its meaning, yet I find Chris’ explanantion of sports behavior and the fact that the intensity resembles, and is symbolic of, Chinese national pride and desire to “make up” for the last 200 years spot on.
    This team has a long history of starting fights. Also, Chinese can be found to retaliate quite aggressively even for very modest mistakes or personal daliences, from a foreigners perspective. To me, they are not used to aggressive tit-for-tat behavior and physical struggle and when they feel attacked their insecurites get the best of them. I do not consider this analogy lost on China’s military defense system.
    Heck, even on the soccer/football field between totally amateurish teams the China players run faster, jockey harder and make penalties with vigor when playing a foreigner team. Watch how everything calms down dramatically when its Chinese vs. Chinese.
    Chris writes ” Even at the “social” level of sport that I play at. When playing non-Chinese, they must defeat the foreigner to show the superiority of Chinese and the system that gave them all this glory. (of course every athlete representing his/her nation has feelings of pride in that representation and are compelled to preform to his/her best, but in China it goes one, or more, steps further than that. It is the difference between patriotism and nationalism) “. I find this to be true.
    How about a post on http://www.chinalawblog.com now facing the Great Flre Wall of China? I have heard it is no longer possible to reach your site from inside China as of right about the time of the food quality post. Or maybe you have arranged to be self blocked.

  • Blog Fan

    When I first read this post I completely agreed with it. But some of the comments are so persuasive that I am starting to change my mind. I would love to hear more.

  • anon this time

    I agree with Chris above.
    I remember playing tennis with a female friend, late 20′s and her boyfriend. We played weekly indoors at a court in Shanghai; I am American and they are Chinese. I was struck by how relentlessly they rooted against me and always, always, framing the friendly (i had previously supposed) matches as “China vs. the U.S. I had similar experiences playing pool with a Shanghainese guy. It was always about China vs the U.S., I quickly realized. These people were my friends and if I had pointed out this line of behavior to them I am not sure they would have copped to it, or even gave it quiet consideration when I had gone home.
    When I saw that Georgetown brawl, I noticed that a lot of the comments referred to Georgetown’s reputation for physical, aggressive play particularly in the paint. Those references are badly outdated though – whatever John Thompson III inherited from his dad (who also coached at Georgetown) it wasn’t a penchant for recruiting glowering, bruising players, or those with an intimidating presence. I cannot even begin to imagine what would have happened had a Chinese player approached John Thompson Jr. with fists up, ready to fight?!?! That JT3 showed restraint was commendable; I think it also emboldened the Chinese side to further thuggery. Never in my life have I seen a player approach an opposing coach and threaten to strike him, and to see it from the national team in that venue?
    I grew up on the *working class* south side of Chicago, and remember playing ball in some really rough areas in the 80′s. I played a lot, occasionally in some really rough areas, including the projects. I remember seeing a few fights, mainly pushing and shoving, loud talking, etc. Only a couple of times (over 13 or so years of regular playing) do I remember seeing anything like what I saw in China. It was shocking to see the Chinese team and fans behave in the same violent, wolf-pack manner that hardened gang members or severely maladjusted young men might..
    The amazing foul disparity should have raised an alarm with Thompson, I somewhat fault him for leaving his team out there after a Chinese player made as if to strike him. The throwing of chairs and water bottles by players from the bench, and the fans… every rare occasion I see glimpses of “scary China”, and that was one of them.
    Those who follow Chinese sports team might not be completely surprised, though. They can be rude hosts when things don’t go their way… I’ve seen it before in soccer, both the mens and womens team have gotten rough with the Japanese and others, and in basketball with Brazil, but not to this degree.

  • Jeff

    I looked at several videos of this and what really struck me was the behavior of the fans. I am no fan of Georgetwon b/ball, but that had to be a very scary siutation.
    I have played plenty of hoops as you know, and I live in Detroit, home of the Pistons and the Ron Artest incident. This China brawl was much worse.
    My long term view on China remains the same.

  • Paul Pot

    This reminds me of the Pistons/Pacers brawl. This happens in America too..! This one was pretty crazy!