China-US Spying, Killing Terrorists In Dubai, And Computer Hacking. Like It's A Big Deal.
I was not going to write about it, but based on my three email rule, I am. My rule says if three people email me on a topic, I write about it, especially if the emails begins with something along the lines of "I'm surprised you've remained silent on...." So I am writing about the recent spate of media reports on China spying and hacking and just for good measure, I might as well throw in the taking out of a terrorist in Dubai.
Here is my position on all of that.
1. None of it is really new.
2. Are you really surprised? Seriously. How many people out there do not believe that the governments and or companies from China, the United States, Russia, France, Japan, Germany, Israel, England, etc. are not constantly trying to figure out what other governments are doing and are not constantly snooping into company information?
3. Governments have taken out (killed, captured, etc.) their enemies since the beginning of governments. That does not necessarily make it right, but it still should be discussed in that perspective.
4. One can certainly take the position that spying is or is not immoral, but there is something hypocritical in acting as though it is an horrible immoral thing when a country you do not like does it, while acting as though your own country is above the fray. Because not only do governments engage in spying, they also engage in propaganda when they are able to catch and publicize spying by others, and it does behoove us not to get all caught up in it as though it is a completely one-sided thing.
We are just reading about .00001% of what goes on out there.
5. Take China and the US. It would probably boggle the mind how much money is spent and how many people each country devotes to spying on the other. So though it is interesting when one side or the other gets caught, it is not nearly as meaningful as it is usually made out to be.
So I guess my position is that, yes, of course, it happens, and wouldn't it be great if we could all just get along? I am truly not trying to be facetious here, but at the same time, I just have a lot of trouble getting all into screaming mode.
What do you think?
Comments (9)
Read through and enter the discussion by using the form at the enduk visa - February 19, 2010 6:49 AM
I thought James Lewis made many valid points on NPR Fresh Air - http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123531188
Balanced, bright and open discussion of 2007 hack and the knee jerk reaction of many in Washington to blame China every time their dog isn't well.
Worth listening to if it only reminds you never to pick up a memory stick; and if you do - don't plug it in to your computer!
ceh - February 19, 2010 8:12 AM
Well said, Dan. Now if only you could convince even 1/4 of the college-educated population of this country to agree with you...
P&R - February 19, 2010 9:19 AM
Stories such as this makes me personally so heartbroken, I am aware it's a cliche to ask if we are able to all merely get along, but how much more of this stuff are we going to endure?
Ian - February 19, 2010 9:34 AM
The CIA has generally written off some intelligence-gathering techniques as TOO unethical. As I recall, the CIA doesn't run honeypots (seduction-based operations), nor does it place agents in news agencies (since it could put legitimate reporters under undue suspicion and put them at greater risk). China's been suspected/accused of the former, and definitely does the latter.
This is not to come to the particular defense of the US or to attack China; intelligence work is an unethical activity -- carefully practiced lying, cheating, and stealing. But there are important distinctions between Chinese and US intelligence activities, and I tend to be more nervous about one than the other.
theAdmiral - February 19, 2010 11:11 AM
Governments have taken out (killed, captured, etc.) their enemies since the beginning of governments. That does not necessarily make it right, but it still should be discussed in that perspective.
Excellent point Dan. I wonder why manyapplaud the death of Taliban "leaders" killed by our drones, yet are "outraged" when a known Hamas terrorist is assassinated.
I am not condoning the actions, but I would point out that there appeared to have been ZERO civilian casualties taking out this particular known self-admitted Hamas arms supplier.
I too wish we could all get along. Maybe Aslan will show up next week and get us all together.
James Seng - February 19, 2010 6:41 PM
Totally agreed :-)
Cyberspying like all covert operations is part and parcel of International relationship. You spy even on your best friend, for self-interest sake.
See http://james.seng.sg/2010/02/20/making-sense-of-sino-us-relationship/
AT - February 21, 2010 12:19 AM
"...and with constantly snooping into company information so as to better arm their own companies with information?"
You say it as a matter of fact that every government hacks into the databases of private sector foreign companies in order to steal data to provide to companies in their own countries. I know this is an inherently shady area, but how would that even work where companies compete with each other mercilessly and aren't owned by the state? You'd have the mother of all lawsuits if a major American company ever found out that one of its competitors was the beneficiary of CIA-sponsored industrial espionage. If and when the CIA hacks into private foreign companies, I'd bet the house that the information remains very tightly classified and is only used for national security purposes. "Everyone does it" is a plausible way to explain away an unfortunate reality. But for me, if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it might just be a duck.
Chalmers Wood - February 24, 2010 3:31 AM
It might be useful to define some terms here:
Intelligence: Having or Learning knowledge valuable to others.
Diplomacy: Skill in handling, managing, and distributing, in the international long term, intelligence and cross-national trust for shared gain within the arena of human affairs without harm to individuals or groups absent that mono-national “diplomacy” sponsored or supported partisan political forces such that the sum of human affairs are advanced.
Espionage: Clandestine for gain theft of intelligence for use altering the sum of human affairs absent long term diplomatic considerations.
Propaganda: Public for gain use of intelligence which can distort the reality in the sum of human affairs.
It’s my experience that the older a nation is, the more instinctively they understand and behave in sync along the lines of these definitions as best I can define here and now. I was issued my first Diplomatic passport for Vietnam in 1957, no kidding.
DL - June 4, 2011 3:58 PM
I think that this does go on all the time, by all sides and that we only see the tip of the iceberg. When I go to China, I clear out all important information from my laptop. This is good for China and it is also good for reentering the US, where customs is known for searching the computers of people returning from places like China.