China Law Blog

Sounds like good advice to me; good advice to people interacting with any people they're not familiar with.
I have to confess to upsetting a few Americans at a dinner party a years ago by suggesting that California would be better to secede from the Union (90's/ pre Arnie/ when it had money!) - I had no idea such a suggestion would elicit such a strong - negative/ almost violent reaction.
So I understand the wisdom in moving slowly and testing the ground quietly when interacting with people who are foreign to us.

When you say "fervent communists", what do you mean? We all have friends who are in the CCP, but generally (or so I usually surmise) even the ones who really, really support party rule hardly seem to be "communists", more than they just think the party is what's best for China. How do these lawyers relate their practice to communism, and how do they feel about having an international focus, does that dovetail with their ideologies? Forgive me if my questions aren't very good, but I am no law expert.

I have only known one Chinese lawyer well, and I suspect that like most others, the lawyers we tend to hear about are all crusaders of some sort, with the vast majority being "human rights" (broad definition implied here) advocates.

As far as being a jokester, I find that subtle black humor goes over well, but what you term "towel-snapping" humor is best saved for those you know really, really well. In particular, I have found that any game played, even between long-term friends, tends to quickly take on a "U.S. vs China, 加油中国！" quality. The sort of ordinary ribbing I might give (or receive) for a particularly good billards shot or basketball play won't do on the badminton court. In fact, given how often I hear "U.S. vs China" (said in supposed jest) when I play against someone, I feel that with non-Chinese, feelings of nationalism are never far from the surface. But then, feelings of nationalism are never far from the surface in many places, I suppose.

I think it's also about knowing exactly the limits you can push in certain societies, and what some people will do in the event they feel provoked. For instance, living in Central Europe -- and in particular in post-Communist Czech Republic -- I can't tell you how many PC Americans and Brits I met who tend to overcompensate with their political-correctness by going completely overboard with their "face-extending" to the locals. I've never understood why, considering the locals are Europeans living in a European context and don't deserve any special treatment, especially given that their nation signed up for EU Membership and financially (and otherwise) gains from being in this Union.

I've made many (sometimes intentional in abject frustration, since amended) faux-pas during my long stint in Prague, expressing things like:

** Slovakia is the Czech Republic's "Eastern Colony."
** the Czech language should have never been resurrected at the end of WWII because it has absolutely no value-add or meaning outside of the confines of the local culture and market plus Slovakia (approx. 20M people -- Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, etc. -- in the world can either speak it, read it, or in some manner understand it).
** 1/6th of all Czechs have Germanic (either Austrian or "German" German) blood (TRUE!). Look at Czechs' neighbors.
** Czechs are racist xenophobes who are self-absorbed (I've experienced all this for myself) and don't like outsiders (again, connected to history).
** Czechs think their nation is on a par with China (in terms of exclusivity, linguistically-significant, etc.). But I am always the first to remark: you don't see 5M Danes or Irish or Scots or Slovenians or Swiss acting like isolationist racists who revel in their apartness. Rather, these other nations realize the limitations of their tongue, language, and geography and have modified their education systems, external outlook, and foreign policies accordingly.

I've expressed incendiary things like this because I know the society's limits, and I realize that while some people might be reticent to make similar statements, I realize that in some small way there is a benefit to the locals from encountering gadflies like me who remind them to "keep it real" and to remain grounded.

Naturally, what is happening in Central Europe is a generational phenomenon.

Incidentally, you don't see Poles (30M people) or Romanians (22M) acting like other Central and Eastern European statelets. They've travelled and opened up to the world.

As concerns false face-giving...in China, where there is an established tradition of doing so (read: centuries), I'll buy it. Here in Europe?

Yeah...

While I think it is an excellent list and pretty much agree with everything on it, there should be another list: They are different from us (and perceive themselves as being so). I was with the Peace Corps for two years in China. At the start of each semester, I would have my students list characteristics of Americans and of Chinese (it was a Western culture class). Americans were perceived as individualistic, self-reliant and independent while the Chinese saw themselves as family oriented, collectivist and conservative. Richard Nisbett's "The Geography of Thought: How Asians and Westerners think differently...and why" is invaluable on this topic. Opinions may vary on this book, but my experience in China was consistent with a lot of what he argues in the book. Not that there aren't the similarities you mention. But as the Chinese would say, "there are two sides to every coin."

Peter: They are different from us (and perceive themselves as being so). I was with the Peace Corps for two years in China. At the start of each semester, I would have my students list characteristics of Americans and of Chinese (it was a Western culture class). Americans were perceived as individualistic, self-reliant and independent while the Chinese saw themselves as family oriented, collectivist and conservative.

One thing that you have to be careful of here is that stereotypes may not match reality. If you ask someone to define how a stereotypical person from New York, Texas, and Orange County, California behave, you'll come up with a list of adjectives. There is *some* grain of truth in the idea that Texans are cowboys and New Yorkers are loud, but if you take those stereotypes too seriously, you are going to find yourself in a lot of trouble pretty quickly.

Also Nisbett's book sounds pretty bogus. His knowledge of Chinese philosophy sounds like something he read from fortune cookies.

The other thing that I've found about psychology experiments that claim to measure cultural differences is that it's not clear that they are measuring anything of the sort. If you have a group of poor Chinese farmers versus rich American investment bankers, you'll find massive differences in how they think. And this means what????

It is interesting to talk with someone to see what their stereotypes are. I associate the term "Chinese" with investment banks, engineers, physics Ph.D.'s, and southern Baptist Christian fundamentalism.

It has to do with my upbringing. A lot of the Chinese that I know think of "family values" as "true American beliefs" and that all of this individualist stuff is the result of "secular humanists" wrecking the nation.

Personally, I think that Lao-Tze is wishy-washy nonsense, and when Westerners think of "Eastern philosophy" they tend to pick and choose things that fit into their stereotypes. Why is Lao-Tze thought of as a "Eastern philosopher" whereas Mao Zedong is not?

If Nisbett was right, none of this would make any sense at all.

Appreciated this post- very timely. Applying generalities to a cross-cultural business relationship is never a good idea; if one is fixated on cultural differences instead of the actual person, there will unlikely be synergy or a solid foundation to work with.

I grew up with a father who used to do a fair amount of business with Chinese manufacturers and who was also in a LTR with a Taiwanese woman (and all of this began in the West Indies- talk about a cultural salad). Anyway, he'd tell me the occasional story about a business dinner with a Chinese counterparty and he'd frame his recounting in a manner describing the essence of the experience and the characteristics of the individual. He never, ever focused on racial, cultural or political difference. Ever. Cultural difference just never came up in our house (and our house was a revolving door of "cultural difference" to the naked eye).

We will all make cultural blunders at one point or another- it happens. So, if you trip up, just have a laugh about it with the other person- humor and sincerity transcends so many barriers.

It is best to just be yourself and give proper attention to the other person over worrying about how different they may be from you. We all want to find success, to fall in love, to be liked. There are far more similarities between us at the end of the day then there are differences. It amazes me that in the realm of international business we still have such a hard time wrapping our heads around this concept...

. . . . At the start of each semester, I would have my students list characteristics of Americans and of Chinese (it was a Western culture class). . . . .

add one more thing to the list of things Chinese and Americans have in common - they both seem to think that America is the west.

In China,it's difficult to explain China law to aliens, different culture, different legal system, even no appropriate words to translate.

I attended a networking event in Shanghai last night. It was my first time ever attending such a function in a very long time. What struck me was the speed and fervor with which the participants moved from one person to the next -- it really was like speed-dating.

Oddly enough, the whole atmosphere seemed quite familiar and reminiscent of my law school days, when law firms hosted events in a big hotel restaurant or bar to recruit students.

However, the event last night was a lot more methodical in the sense that people really did move quite quickly from one person to the next in order to exchange business cards with as many people as possible. Also, I found the process more straightforward and utilitarian, as opposed to how hypocritical and used-car-salesman-like some folks can be at networking mixers.

As an American who travels often to China, I almost find myself turning everything down a notch. My dress, body language, demeanor, tone of voice, etc. Too often we don't enter other countries with the due deference of being a guest in that country. Perhaps it is because I live in the South that I not only don't mind "giving face," but I rather enjoy the pleasantries. Yes, it can turn into a love fest but everyone's motives are generally good. You can tell when a business person, Chinese or other, is just laying it on thick. But they too can tell.

It is an honor to develop business friendships abroad. This guanxi has been a unique gift and one lost in the fast paced environment of some Western business climates.

FOARP: what do you mean by "they both seem to think that America is the west." What would you consider America to be?

It definitely makes sense to consider the United States to be part of the Western World or Western Culture. A majority of its people came from Europe, and much of our culture stems from England (being the colonists who historically wielded the power).

Do you not consider the U.S. part of Western Culture? Obviously, U.S. and Europe are quite different, but I'd place them both in Western Culture (just as English and German are related). Or do you want to consider there to be a greater division, such as Western (European), Eastern (or broken down even further, Chinese, Japanese, etc), American Culture, etc?

Of course west and east are relational and arbitrary (the U.S. is east of China; and west since we live on a globe). Actually based upon the arbitrary placement of the Prime Meridian, the U.S. is in the western hemisphere (and most of Europe is not).

Enough of my rant.

UK visa lawyer. I think we can agree it is never a good idea to talk about how someone else's country should be carved up. I do not buy into the idea of avoiding political discussions, but I do buy into the idea of avoiding territorial discussions.

James G,

When I say fervant communist, I mean people who truly believe in the party and truly believe in the concepts of communism. I know it may sound weird to think there are very good international lawyers who buy into communism with a near religious fervor, but trust me there are.

The lawyers my firm tends to work with in China are mostly around 30-45 years old, mostly incredibly bright, and mostly very pragmatic. Heck, even the fervent communists are very pragmatic and without really having discussed these things with them, my sense is that they believe they are serving the cause by working on international law matters. None of the lawyers (at least as far as I know) are terribly active in human rights issues, though many of them are not the least bit shy in complaining about the government.

I generally do not like any "cultural list" because they must, at least to some extent, cause one to ignore the individual. This list at least points that out. I would not for a moment dispute that there are cultural differences among peoples, and that knowing those differences can be helpful. Yet at the end of the day, what really matters is not the culture with which you are dealing, but the people, and people are individuals.

Again though, there are certain things that are acceptable in one culture that are not acceptable in another, and it certainly does not hurt to know what those are.

@ Twofish:

Lao Zi (老子) is wishy-washy nonsense?! Are you reading the classical Chinese or a translation? What makes it wishy-washy?

Like any other cultural phenomenon, Chinese philosophy needs to be read and understood in a context. I am curious why Lao Zi, among many other Chinese philosophers, is so displeasing to you.

If anything, Mozi 墨子 should win the award for most wish-washy. It's so repetitive and bland.

"Lao-Tze is wishy-washy nonsense"
Quite a statement to make about one of the greater Chinese philosophers. I find it amazing when ignorant westerners like you don't understand something or simply when things don't suit your tastes in other cultures and countries,you are quick to debase and dismiss them.

"It has to do with my upbringing. A lot of the Chinese that I know think of "family values" as "true American beliefs" and that all of this individualist stuff is the result"
of "secular humanists" wrecking the nation.

And how many Chinese do you know? 2? Take a look at the current trend of Chinese beliefs or better yet, spend more than 2 weeks here and you'll see that this is clearly the old way of thinking and the transformation from collectivist to individualist mentality is rapid and constantly gaining momentum. Also you might want to keep in mind that the older generation in this nation were forced to think and act collectively under the old communist regime and mantra for many decades. Not to mention all they knew and heard from their government and their fellow Chinese were of a collectivist notion and ideal. Now they have opened up to the world and actually have a choice and suprise, surprise, looks what's happening...

"Why is Lao-Tze thought of as a "Eastern philosopher" whereas Mao Zedong is not?"

Gee, Aside from the fact that 老子 lived and operated in a world a few millenia before Mao and was one of the true original Chinese philosophers and creator of the Tao Te Ching and other principles and ideologies that still permeate Chinese society. Mao was heavily influenced by the Russian revolution and Marxist-Lenist ideals and this is why many do not consider him a true Chinese philosopher and some do not consider him a philosopher at all.