China Law Blog

I have to point out, the take in "go native" is totally wrong. There are certain rules and etiquetts. But it can explain my impression: in China, the foreigners from the developed countries are generally more rude and ready for violence than the locals and the people from the developing countries.

What a silly piece!

Traffic is chaotic in many developing countries, and you can get cut off, or bumped into in any number of them, but that does NOT mean that the economy there is on fire. And to pick of all places, Shanghai! If any city is trending away from chaotic, that's the one. They have a traffic light at every intersection and you can't blow your horn anymore, and median dividers have been installed to prevent jaywalking.

Maybe I was in a different Shanghai than Kent Kedl,but I was walking down Huaihai Road and tried to jump a red light. Some old lady blew a whistle at me, and half a dozen other pedestrians gave me the stink eye. So much for a lack of civility.

Shanghai is great. It has the cleanest taxis in the region (ex-Japan), and I love the white glove thing (which they also do in Japan).
Compared to Minnesota, yes, Shanghai may seem hectic. Get over it, seriously.

Things a little tight on the subway this morning? How about Japan, where they have "people pushers". And let's not get into the other sorts of physical contact that goes on in Japanese subway cars, speaking of "civility".

Dan, First, let's get something straight. As a New Yorker, it's my right to drive fast and furious, so you just buckle up and enjoy the ride. I have no problem driving in China, and they watch out for me, not the other way around. We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto. If Kent Kedl thinks he can handle the wheel, I'd be glad to race him along those elevated skyways of Shanghai, with you straight-jacketed and belted in.

Second, the Cultural Revolution is no excuse for behavioral characteristics. Zhu Dake is off-base. Taipei in the mid-70's was no different. Getting on any bus or train was like catching the last vehicle out of a war zone. Be a gentleman and you can just wait for the next bus, then the next after that. People may snicker about how awful it is, but the alternative is to take a taxi, or walk, or strike it rich and have someone else drive you in your own automobile. Hence, the problem goes deeper than some intermittent political event, but Zhu knows it's politically incorrect to discuss it from that angle. China, that great mass of shifting sands blowing every which way, is the China we all have come to know and love. Indeed, love it or leave it.

Going native is the only way. It's kind of like marriage -- no one "changes" anyone else, and if you can't accept the way the other one is, then it's bound to fail.

Leo,

I bet you are right and here's my explanation. If you come to China from Denmark, you are used to everything "just working" so the frustration when it does not is greater than if you came to China from, let's say, India.

Berner,

You make some valid points. Traffic rules are more and more being followed in Shanghai, and certainly more so than every other place I have been in China. Also, its cabs are not all that bad, I agree. In fact, I did a piece a few months back touting how much better they were than in Beijing. But, Shanghai does not compare to Tokyo or to Seoul in terms of traffic safety or in terms of its cabs. If I were to rank cities on a "hecticness" scale, Shanghai would absolutely be in my top ten. I have been to Vietnam, Turkey (Istanbul versus Shanghai would be an interesting contest), Korea, Japan, Singapore, HK, Macau, and just about everywhere in both Western and Eastern Europe, but never to Africa or to the Indian subcontinent, nor even to all that many places in Latin America.

My sense is that as the wealth of a country increases, its hectictness decreases. Certainly the case with Korea, where I have been going fairly regularly for the last 20 years.

Todd,

Did you drive in China? There are certain things I know I will never do and get in a car with you as driver is one of those.

I agree that the "problem" goes deeper than an intermittent political event as I am convinced that it's all economics, stupid.

@Todd - Too true, too many of things that people say are due to mainland China's recent past are found also in other Chinese speaking parts of the world (and in other places also, to tell the truth). However, China itself does not have the worst record for road safety, that goes to Russia. Check out some Russian road horror here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9JE7IZxl2s

I have to say, though, that if going native is the only option, then you had better check that your life-insurance is fully paid up!

My...such energetic comments! Didn't know a simple piece on Shanghai traffic would generate such interest.

First of all, I don’t think that the Marketplace reporter, Scott Tong, was setting up a cause and effect relationship between traffic and business in China – i.e. traffic is crazy because business here is too (or the reverse). What he was saying (I think) is that there are similarities between the two and if you can’t handle the one, you are not likely to be able to handle the other. He was also saying that, as a foreigner, you are not going to change it…it is what it is. Too many foreign companies come here and, like Mr. Jennet in the piece who walked with his elbows out, they think they can “change China” by acting a certain way (as in “well, I know that this is the way it is done in China, but in OUR company we…(fill in blank with the “right” way to do something). Mr. Jennet learned that you should probably walk with your elbows in and just go along with the crowd.

When I talked about "going native", what I meant, simply, was that we foreigners are NOT Chinese. My first 5 years in China, I thought I could be Chinese...if I just learned the language well enough, understood the culture deeply enough, blended in enough. But then I realized that was impossible and I have spent the subsequent 18 years trying to find where I do "fit" here. When I find out, I will let you know.

As for the challenge to race in Shanghai, I will have to decline. Anyone who THINKS they can race here and actually WANTS to is beyond my league…I am just trying to get my kids to volleyball practice!

CLB: Drove and drive plenty around Shanghai, Zhejiang and Jiangsu. Haven't ventured farther west or north yet, but just a question of time. I enjoy the manual more than the automatic, keeps one more in the spirit of the game.

FOARP: Yes, plenty of life insurance; just switched from NYS Bar Assn-sponsored plan to Allstate, with lower premium and increased (potential) return (but not a return that I would enjoy during my mortal meanderings on this planet, since it is payable only upon my making a non-returnable exit). Mrs. Platek will deliver a healthy dowry to the next chap, and certainly huger than the one she brought to me 30 years ago. Hmmm....wonder whether there are alternative candidates to nominate as beneficiary? Oh, well, enough of such naughty thoughts, to which my beloved China well lends itself.

NPR: "Our China correspondent Scott Tong says his trip to and from the office is kind of a metaphor for doing business there."

KK: In order to succeed in China, sometimes you've got to close your eyes and hope for the best. "Don't look. Just hit the gas and go."

We're all familiar with metaphors. The questions is whether China consultants are really telling their clients to do business like they drive, that in order to succeed in the China market you've sometimes got to close your eyes and move forward. This is all further to my point about this being a "silly piece". But if Mr. Ray Charles wants to stand behind his comments and NPR's suggestion of a metaphor, by all means!

Berner: Lighten up, man. The piece was entertaining, if not strictly legal-oriented.

As far as your experience on Huai Hai Lu, that ain't a lot of Shanghai reality. Sounds more like Germany, where no one crosses against a red light even when there isn't a car coming for two miles. I often get swarms of Shanghai bicyclists pedaling around me in both directions, like salmon swimming upriver and downriver and every-which-way, and in the countryside, they swerve all over to avoid the craterous potholes. White-begloved taxi drivers? I seem to get the ones who drive bare-knuckled, playing music loud and bitter about their lot in life, and just as likely to drive into on-coming traffic as stay in lane. But it's all good, as they say in Georgia.