China Law Blog

Thanks Dan, you just punched a great big hole in part of my argument - and I have to say I agree with you. That leads me to think of other things, but I'm certainly not saying them now because I'm certain they contain even bigger fault lines.

I agree. I'd call it arrogance more than racism. The point I was trying to make is that if your goal is to change China in some way, going there and trying to convince everyone you meet that China needs to do XYZ is counterproductive.

There was a story floating around the Chinese internets recently about a foreigner in China who picked up garbage wherever he went. He didn't tell people to pick it up. He picked it up. This caused a ruckus and got a lot of Chinese thinking and debating appropriate responses to pollution (in a direct, local manner). Some people started following his example. Some people attacked him. Some people were baffled. But if this same guy launched into a tirade about Chinese pollution, he would have not only produced no effect, but a negative effect. (Oh yeah, the guy turned out to be some sort of fugitive from international justice hiding in China or something like that, but that's beside the point for the moment -- only in China.) Anyway, that is just one small example.

So you could say that that is a question of tactics -- examining the intended effects versus the actual effects.

On a deeper level, though, there is plenty of paternalism in Western advice for China. Most Chinese admire the West and have adopted many Western practices (and vices) because of what they SEE, not because of Western "advice" over the past 50 years.

And, no, I'm sorry to disappoint some of my Chinese friends out there: I am not saying that "foreigners" should never offer their opinions or insights on China. But they should examine when, where, and how best to do that -- and also take stock of their own, often paternalistic, assumptions.

I think that there were some good comments related to this idea in the previous post as well. Many in response to the question that I raised there.

Dan, I have to agree. It's a cultural, not racial, difference that we feel. Example: One day in Shanghai, I was driving my friend's car when a man on a bicycle in the front of the pack pedaled straight on for me, then cycled around me at the last second. I could have sworn I'd be facing a cop about why I had mowed down a defenseless, albeit demented, cyclist. As he had been coming at me, I blurted out "What's this idiot doing?! Is he completely nuts?" And then I realized most of the cyclists following him were doing this, treating my vehicle as a rock in the water, despite my speed of about 20 mph. And I said to her, in the U.S., if someone rode a bike this way, we'd call him crazy. But here, everyone is doing it! Her reply? "If everyone here is doing it, then it's normal, not crazy." So I just took a deep breath, nodded, and drove. Just a cultural difference. So smile.

cat --

Despair not. It used to be said of litigators that they were the only writers whose writings were immediately reviewed by others with the sole intent of finding fault. I think bloggers should be added to that list.

The following comments by 88s and Toddd Platek are interesting. 88s calls it arrogance and Platek calls it cultural. I think it is arrogance also.

88s --

I completely agree; nobody wants to be told how to live their life, especially by an outsider. Love the story re the litter guy.

Derek --

Yes, amazing how your one question got so much going.

Todd Platek --

I can smile at most cultural differences, but I cannot get past the terror of China driving. It does not help that I was in two car accidents in one day. One in Yantai and the next one in Qingdao.

My driving record is clean, so I'll volunteer (read closely - a lawyer saying volunteer)for the task if I'm around. I enjoy competing with all the cars in China, but those dreadnought bikers....
I agree w/88 about the arrogance some Westerners show. They may be the more recent arrivals who haven't begun to appreciate the difference, or the more stubborn ones who refuse to appreciate it. I suggest a re-reading of Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" for a starter course in sensitivity training, and read it cross-culturally.

@CLB: The way I stand on things is that there are three views of every issue - your way, my way and the "true" way. Now I recognize that modernism dictates that "true" be a subjective term, but that would just be it fitting into "your way" or "my way".

What happens when anyone states an opinion about something is that it comes from "my way", and gets interpreted by "your way" - neither of which is the "true way".

However, this doesn't negate the "true" way from existing, nor does it make my way or your way from being less true if it is, in fact, closer to the true way.

All of this may seem like arbitrary labels - but if we use the pollution issue in China as an example, the truth is: it's a problem. If I say it's a problem and you say it's not, "my way" is closer to the truth, and so more valid.

Now, me stating that it's a problem (as an outsider or whatever) raises biases, emotions, etc. It also calls into question my motives for saying it, my background, etc. But strip away all of that, and it's still closer to the truth.

The 88s has an excellent point (BTW: watched Kill Bill the other day and think I've figured out where the title of the blog comes from) - speaking the truth, true or not, is not always the "most productive way" - and if you're goal is to effect change, he's absolutely right.

The question I have is should arrogance be met with arrogance? And that's the thing I find holds China back more often than not. It uses the arrogance of the West as an insult not to listen to things that are the truth.

People eating contaminated fish, and washing in chemical slick water aren't going to benefit from a politician ignoring the problem because their pride was hurt.

And that's the truth - or at least my way of seeing it.

Humanaught --

I did a post on the 88s blog about a year ago, concluding it with this: I am just hoping 88 will check in and tell us where he got that name for his blog. Eight is a lucky number for Chinese, there is a rock group with that name, and there were the Crazy 88s in the movie, Kill Bill ....

Someone wrote in and said Although "the number "88" is widely used to refer "Heil Hitler" by all kinds of White Supremacy groups."

The author of the 88s blog then explained its origins: "For the record, I chose the name "The 88s" because I used to live near Interstate 88 in New York state and 8 is considered an auspicious number in Chinese culture." He also mentioned that a "commenter on a different blog just said I must be a closet pianist because a piano has 88 keys. Also, radium has an atomic number of 88, which may indicate that I have a secret obsession with Marie Curie."

So now you know.

As for your views on the truth, I concur with you, but of course that makes us old fashioned.

I also agree with you that arrogance is not by any means confined to the West. It is a human trait. But, and it took my having kids and becoming an employer to realize this fully, the reality is that it is difficult to listen to criticism and, sometimes, it is just better to keep one's mouth shut (hard as that is and do not for a minute think that I think of myself as any better in this than anyone else) and let people learn from their mistakes.

I hate that I am always recommending the book, The World on Fire, but that is one of the few books I have ever read that caused a massive shift in my thinking and one of the underlying themes of that book is that dictating to other countries just is not terribly effective. I think history shows that as well.

While China sticks out it's bottom lip and complains about western "arrogance", let's not forget China's own arrogance. People will still lecture a foreigner about China's long history and inventing everything under the sun, which cave dwelling, uncultured, illiterate white people stole for the foundations of their own society.

A chinese friend in the US asked me if I knew my history from the Chinese point of view and it went something like this:

"During the ancient times, China invented the US and all of its current technology. Everything was wonderful and perfect until the white people came together and made a plan against China. They had no culture, were illiterate, had no technology or military strategy, no bureaucracy or wealth and a much smaller population. But they looked down on China so they were able to invade and defeat China thus leading to the 400 years of humiliation (used to be 150 but now the humiliation started with a Portugese incident on Taiwan 400 years ago.)."

This led to a humored chuckle. But the truth of the matter is China's arrogance regarding its own society and the realization of the West's accomplishments both technologically and socially (especially socially) are light years ahead of China, even though westerners are still considered "barbarians".

There are alot of countries that screw their people over as much or more than China, but the environmental pollution problem is inexcusable and is a threat to all of us. We can all have a semantic debate about CO2, but not mercury, lead, arsenic or organic pollutants (and I'm just scratching the surface).
SEPA has admitted off the record to the US and EU EPAs "we can make alot of good laws but cannot enforce any, especially when our people are physically threatened".

This is a dire situation and if it takes lecturing and yes, scolding China on a regular basis, then so be it. Dan, being on the West coast, you are breathing in alot of Chinese pollution. It exists in a thin film on everything you touch outdoors and your kids are getting it in their systems as well. These pollutants collect in body fat, the kidneys, liver and degrade nerve sheathes (akin to stripping the covering off of the wiring in your car and home). Some can be removed through dietary and medical cleansing, but you are playing catch up with China's foul industries. Now how do you feel about lecturing China?

Interesting to wake up to this post. I was watching "Mad Men," a drama about advertising execs on Madison Avenue in the 60s. Smart show and one of the key feature of the show is the realistic presentation of racism and sexism of the period which seems to be historically accurate.

http://www.amctv.com/originals/madmen/

The casual racism and sexism comments somehow reminds me the Western bloggers on China these days. Interesting show to check out.

Anyway, I don't see anything inherently wrong with the racism for Westerners on China. Racism is part of human instincts. Robert Putnam of Harvard has recently published a controversial paper on diversity.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c4ac4a74-570f-11db-9110-0000779e2340.html

It's normal for Westerners to look at China via a "us-vs-them" point of view. Is it racism? Maybe. Is it bad? Not really. No matter how racist, post-colonialist or paternalistic the Western bloggers may be, they are not going to translated into legislations impacting China on either side of the Pacific.

David:

I've been watching that show from the start. It's pretty good and shows US society near a pivotal turning point in its development.

But are you seriously equating it with racism towards China? How about Chinese racism towards westerners? White people? How about those Chinese TV shows with white westerners in them? Oh yeah, I forgot, China is just being traditional?

@Dan: Cheers for the info on The 88s. My biggest causality of the GFW blog crackdown this year. I used to be an avid reader, but don't have the time to mess around with proxies to get to it anymore.

I'll also check out that book. I'm amassing a huge list of books to scoop when I head back home for the holidays this year - it's now on the list.

@NHYRC: I admire your convictions, as I think I've read the same statement by you a couple hundred times. That doesn't make it any less true though, but it does fall into that "little effect" category. Cruel world.

@David: I think "racism" is used too broadly, and that causes a lot of the misunderstandings regarding it. Having opinions (good or bad) about a country, culture, or social group doesn't equate to racism. Racism should be limited in definition to a negative bias towards a race of people, based completely on their genetic make-up (lipstick and such).

Unfortunately, it seems, that comments directed in any way towards a country, its policies, or its people, is taken as a form of racism - which is why myself and a number of Western bloggers about China get labeled as such. Meh.

some similar discussion here, within context of sub-standard China product:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/pietra_rivoli/2007/08/chinas_toxic_problem.html

In my view, sticking to facts is never racist. But facts can and often are used to support racist notions about "national characteristic" or "cultural essenses".

Westerner's patronizing attitude sparked Boxer rebellion. Mao's revolution is also based on humiliation felt by Chinese. If enough Chinese feel the humiliation again, it is very easy for new demogague to rise up. Just hope the history will not repeat itself ending up with nuclear war this time.