China Law Blog

ganbei !

Ash --

Okay, I changed it, to make it more Chinese, less Japanese/Korean. But here's the deal. If you search Gambai on Google, you get 18,000. If you search Ganbei, you get 22,000, so it certainly is close. But an ei ending is more Chinese than ai so I made that change and I guess it is more an "n" sound than an "m" sound but since my hearing is so poor....

Just thought I'd bother you to be honest ;)

Either/or are ok - its your blog after all.

Hmmm...so being a complete newb to the arena of business, what differences are there from the Chinese/Asian toast to a Western one? I have noticed that Chinese/Japanese MCs love to toast everything and speeches are made left and right. Whereas, the business functions I have been to are usually more mingle/network and pretty inconceivable to have someone even toast at all.

From what you have described as a good formula for toasting sounds to me as a safe bet at any sort of toast: upbeat and vague. Great for weddings as well I would think.

Oops, I meant the business functions in the U.S. seem to be more mingle/yadda yadda.

Ash --

I know, but I do think your spelling is closer.

Mr. Lee --

Gosh, I don't really know as I am not really all that expert in toasts stateside. I would, however, think the major differences would be that there are far fewer toasts in the West (and by West, really all I know at all is the U.S.) and that if you are going to toast at a wedding, you probably ought not to be too vague.

Ok, Dan, very helpful. BUT -- how does one handle the dreaded Double Ganbei, or worse, the team-ganbei? I haven't seen these for a while -- but when I was working on a deal in Guangzhou they used to come up all the time. Seems that getting the big white guy drunk was the highest form of entertainment for the muni & party guys. Is that stuff still going on?

-A

Andrew - "getting the white guy drunk" at official functions is still very much the norm in China, from my experiences. I have countless such stories, and in fact, I have documented one of the more amusing instances, which occured in Jilin, which you can find at the following address if you're interested:

Mark Anthony Jones
Sydney, April 7, 2007

This is off the topic of toasting, but going back to the idea that people love to brag about connections (I won't even use the dreaded "g" word). Why don't people brag more about their friends in low places? Seems like the gypsy cab driver who will pick you up at the airport for cheap, or the friendly printing shop lady who can turn out leaflets overnight are much more useful.

My first toasting experience was with some officials in rural Sichuan and they got the better of that one. But reading this post definitely brought back some memories, and triggered the Chinese words for cooperation, mutual benefit, and friendship.

I think the key is to be to eat well and then be aggressive: take out the others before they take out you.

Andrew --

I plead unfamiliarity with the double or team ganbei. Unfortunately, there does seem to be the view that drinking is necessary to show trust etc. and I am just not a big drinker. I have a whole host of tricks I use to avoid drinking. Russia and Korea make China look sober. I'll never forget one time in Russia when I went to lunch and ordered an orange soda. Everyone asked if I was okay. I was asked if I wanted a beer. I said no. Wine? No. Scotch? No. Whiskey? No. Cognac? Okay. I am not sure I had ever had cognac but I knew that if I did not say yes, I would be saying no all day and... So I had Cognac with lunch???!!! I cannot reveal all of my drinks online, but I will say that the following are oftentimes critical props:

1. Plants.
2. Bathroom runs
3. Diet Coke. The great thing about ordering a coke is that everyone laughs at the Americanness of it and I just play it up.
4. Enlisting the aid of the waitress/hostess, employing the time honored tactic of what I call "pre-greasing."
5. Be the funniest person in the room. Everyone will assume you are so funny because you are drunk.
6. Aggressively encourage everyone else to drink; everyone will assume you are right there with them.
7. Recognize that once everyone else is completely blotto you don't even need to fake it any more.

Yeah, baby, bring on the double Ganbei ... In fact, let me tell you about that time in ... with a quadruple Ganbei, with a twist ....

Benjamin --

I think people are reluctant to brag about connections like those for fear they will be stolen. For example, I can remember years ago my wife not wanting our prized babysitter to pick up our daughter at pre-school for fear someone might steal some of her time.

Ben --

I think that is a good tip. See # 6 above, set forth (I swear) before I read your comment.

Here are the two funniest and most accurate write ups I have ever seen on banquets and drinking in China:

Or instead of having to employ a whole bunch of tactics to avoid getting double teamed or having a bunch of guys ganbei you in relays, just simply tell everyone at the start of the dinner that you are religious and dont drink.

Works for me, every time.

I enjoy a seldom beer every now and again, but I find there is no fun in turning upto work the next day with a banging headache and a dry mouth.

I agree with Ash - using the religion card works every time. For the most part, I've encountered respect for religious restrictions.

But sometimes, you just don't want to announce something as personal as your religion when you are in a business meeting with government officials or others.

So, my first choice is to have a trusted colleague serve as intermediary between me and the host - a little pre-party discreet explanation saves face for everyone!

Banquet Guy --

Those are great links! I actually learned a few new things on how to avoid drinking and I truly thought I knew them all!

ash/serwat --

The religion thing is a big card. I have what is probably a very strange view on that. Here goes:

1. I virtually do not drink. I probably average 1-3 alchoholic drinks a month. I do not like getting drunk at all. Religion plays no part in this.

2. I am very suspicious of people who don't drink at all. My suspicion goes to just ONE thing and that is that they are no fun at all. I know this is unfair and probably even very narrow minded, and considering how much I drink, it is also probably hypocritical (though I am not saying I am any fun at all).

3. Therefore, I am fearful that if I pronounce I do not drink for religious reasons, doing so will change the whole evening for everyone.

Comments? Attacks?

Attack!

Dan, I'll confess that my engrained instinct is to raise an eyebrow when I learn that someone does not drink AT ALL (especially a man); it just seems strange to my way of thinking. Kind of like someone who wears a belt and suspenders at the same time...

Anyway, both you and I are idiots for thinking that way. As anecdotal proof of our idiocy, one of our very own non-drinking CLB posters joined me and some buddies last saturday at a Belgian pub and not only did everyone present have fun, said poster was just as silly and fun as the rest of us.

I'm fairly suprised you went ahead and decided to post that last comment given your usual cultural sensitivity. Did you forget to sign it as your pot-stirring alter ego (NHYRC)? Come on, we all know you created NHYRC as a way to liven up CLB comment threads...

comments: (no attacks - I'm a pacifist today)

I not only see your point, but can confirm that when I mention that I don't drink, whether or not I mention the religion thing, my dinner/drinking companions do get confused.

should they stop drinking? if they choose to keep drinking, will they be at a disadvantage with me, since I'll continue to be sober? is she one of those 'religious fanatics'? Do we want to continue to hang out with her (in a purely-social or business-social context) cuz she's just not that fun as a non-drinker?

Okay. So, as I mentioned, I usually avoid bringing up religion unless my initial request to not be pushed to drink is ignored.

But, either way, I don't drink. That doesn't change. I could compromise my beliefs to fit in, but I'd like to think that not only have I grown past that type of adolescent behavior, but also the people I interact with are not so adolescent as to require it of me.

Unfortunately, that is not always the case in Beijing. Beijing is a big Drinking Scene. It is also not as PC and all-encompassing of various lifestyles as most places I've lived in the USA.

But, oh well... if you (the general 'you') can't get past my not drinking long enough to find out if I'm a good business colleague or fun social companion, then you (again, the general 'you') are probably not going to make a very good business colleague or social companion for ME.

(Though, admittedly, depending on the business colleague or social companion, I will sometimes make some effort to enlighten them on the stupidity of judging people solely based on their non-drinking habit.)

That philosophy worked for me every where else in the world and there's no reason it shouldn't/doesn't work for me here.

By the way, my lack of alcohol consumption in no way inhibits my ability to toast the night away...

Whether or not it makes me more or less of a "fun" person - well, you'd have to crawl out of your narrow tunnel long enough to find that out for yourself.

Ben(jamin):

What's wrong with wearing a belt and suspenders at the same time?

Benjamin --

1. I think you make a number of assumptions about your "other night" that may not be valid. First off, you assume that any of your were "silly and fun." Secondly, you assume you were in a condition to judge the relative funness and silliniess of the assembled crowd. I am more skeptical.

2. For you to accuse me of being NH (that's what I call him (her?) now as it saves my typing hands, indicates you have failed to conduct reasonable due diligence on NH. He existed long before I started this blog, which though not conclusive regarding us not being alter egos, is certainly pretty damn good evidence of it.

Serwat-

As for belts and suspenders:

1. It's a cliche, but why trust someone who doesn't trust their own pants?

2. They just plain look like a dufus.

Dan,

You're right, I have no proof as to the fun and silliness levels, or that my perception of the relative fun level was not greatly impaired.

As for your second point, and I think you saw this coming, is it possible that you are in fact the alter ego of Difficult Drink Lamb Kebab (my own interpretation of their name)?

Benjamin --

I not only did not see it coming, I still have no clue what you are talking about. Please enlighten me.

Serwat --

I certainly agree one who does not drink should not drink just to fit in or to convince people of some sort of fun quotient.

Dan -

I disagree with your implication that Benjamin's assumption of his and his drinking buddies' silliness and funniness are not sufficient to declare the evening of drinking as silly and fun.

Doesn't silliness and fun fall into the subjective category? If he felt he was being silly and fun and his companions felt he was being silly and fun (which they did), then, he was being silly and fun.

He needs no "proof."

If he did need proof, then wouldn't the general consensus of the group that it was a silly and fun evening be sufficient? If not, what "proof" would be sufficient?

Serwat --

I was COMPLETELY joking.

My comment was in reference to "He [nanheyangrouchuan] existed long before I started this blog, which though not conclusive regarding us not being alter egos, is certainly pretty damn good evidence of it."

My point was that since he is not your alter ego, perhaps you are his.

As for the Difficult Drink Lamb Kebab, that is what I take to be the English translation of Nanheyangrouchuan. I am sure I will be corrected if I'm mistaken.

A friend of mine who doesn't drink or smoke because of religious reasons was on a business trip to Japan. So everybody was sitting down and smoking cigars and drinking away, while he did his best to not look awkard. When one of the guys asked him why he wasn't drinking or smoking, he gave the religious card. At that point, the Japanese businessman said "You must be very very strong." Well, trying to give back face to the guy, he said: "Actually, I'm not strong at all, I just grew up like this, so it's not really a challenge. But TRUE strength, I think, would be an adult to have been smoking and drinking all his life to decide to quit. THAT would be strength." The japanese guy smiled and agreed, then kept drinking.

Benjamin --

But our views are so very different.

Chip --

Great story!

Reminds me of Korea, where, or so I am told, every male drinks like a fish until around 45, at which point he is told by a doctor that if he is to continue drinking, he will die.

Not sure if this is true or not, but certainly age ought to have some rewards. I did go to a banquet in China not that long ago where the head guy from the government drank milk or something that certainly looked like milk to me. What's the meaning of that?

Interesting difference in drinking culture between Korea and China. In Korea, many Christian women drink little or no alcohol, so I was never pushed too hard when I declined a drink. My hosts in China were much more belligerent, so I played sick whenever I didn't feel like getting drunk. A trick used by Chinese who have attend more than one function is to fill the glass half-full with water in order to dilute the alcohol.

I think the non-drinkers may be missing a key point here...drinking in China is a VERY good business tool for both sides. Maybe one of the best. You would be very wrong to think that just because someone uses drinking to get to know you better means that they are probably a bad future business partner.

That said, go ahead and refuse to drink and think up ten good excuses. No problem. But I should warn you in advance that if our product offers are similar, I will get better terms (or win the sale or whatever) than you 9 out of 10 times using my drinking bag o' tricks. (see the links above)

By the way, I should also mention that aside from a very occasional beer once a month or so, I never drink alcohol in during my non-business socializing.

Sonagi --

You are absolutely right re Korea. I had a Korean client and we would go out drinking and one of the lawyers for this company would never drink a drop. I finally asked why and was told, "he's a Christian." I was impressed with how he was always included, never pressured.

I do not have any experience with non-drinkers in China against which to compare this, but I will say that I do not eat meat (I do eat all kinds of seafood, however) and I have always found my Chinese hosts to be most accomadating about this.

banguetguy --

I don't think anyone has said (and I know I have never thought) that "just because someone uses drinking to get to know you better means they are probably a bad future business partner."

I also agree with you on the importance of getting to know those with whom you are going to be doing business in China, and I guess I have to also agree this means going out drinking with them.

I think someone sorta said it above..."if you (the general 'you') can't get past my not drinking long enough to find out if I'm a good business colleague or fun social companion, then you (again, the general 'you') are probably not going to make a very good business colleague or social companion for ME."

banquetguy --

Yes.