China Bashing 101

"China bashing" may also just be an equal and opposite reaction to corporate banner waving and kowtowing, and corporations telling us to wave the banner and sing CCP songs for their benefit.

@ Nanoman,

Ah, I just knew you would be the first to log a comment on this post by Dan.

When someone says or comments that "I like this about China" or "I find what China does about ___[fill in the blank] to be interesting and perhaps even a best practice we could all learn from", well, that is hardly "flag waving for the CCP" and "kowtowing". Balanced and fair folks can both love and hate China at the same time, and when they show China some level of respect in a post or blog comment (or even when MBA students travel to China to see what's up there in business) it hardly means they want to become a Party member.

My battle with you in cyberspace has always been that I can't think of an example where you make that distinction.

@ Jeremiah,

Of course, that is not China bashing; unless it accompanies an 10 paragraph diatribe on how unjust China is or corrupt and/or is doomed to fail or implode that is based on "well, my experience in China has been ..." or "see this cite from the Internet or People magazine", then perhaps it might be.

nh --

No matter what the reason, a lack of objectivity and disinteredness is not to be emulated.

Chris Carr --

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Kidding!

"". Balanced and fair folks can both love and hate China at the same time, and when they show China some level of respect in a post or blog comment (or even when MBA students travel to China to see what's up there in business) it hardly means they want to become a Party member."

Chris Carr:
There is little on your blog that is fair or objective, your support of the current Chinese gov't is unwavering and you lead your students down the path of being "CCP apologists".

CLB and Chris: I can look in the mirror everyday knowing that I stand for my values and not mask them over with "It's just business!".
NK would have collapsed and been absorbed by Seoul 20 years ago had it not been for China, the oppression in Myanmar and ethnic cleansing in E. Turkmenistan and Tibet would not be there had it not been China. Pakistan's, Iran's and NK's possession of NBC material would not be but for China. You are doing business with many of the same people who ordered Tiananmen Square and the Gulja massacres, yet it is easy for you to hold the stench at arms length thanks to the Pacific Ocean and using "business" as a defence.

IBM used the same defence when it sold tabulating machines to the Nazis and Isreal's holocaust hunters called them out on it. Yes, you are in the same crowd.
Too bad hundreds of millions of migrant workers, north koreans and such have no one to fight for them against people like you.

Take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself who you are and what you stand for. You probably won't like the answer.

For the love of correct English and accurate communication! It's East Turkestan! Really! Turkmenistan is a whole different country with a whole different set of problems!

Ethnic cleansing? Those are strong words from the South River Ovine Flesh on a Stick. And I suspect an honest look at both history and the current situation would show that claim up for what it really is. I mean, last I checked, there were plenty of Tibetans and Uighurs running around in perfect health getting on with their lives as best they can, even if they're not entirely happy with the country whose borders they've found themselves in. Had you cried "colonisation", I would be more inclined to take your comment seriously.

And comparing any of China's actions to the Holocaust and Chris Carr and CLB to IBM doing business with the Nazis? Oh, I see, your comment is just a really bad joke. Sorry. I'll go and laugh now. Then I'll hug me a panda and put the peg back on my nose to keep the stench out.

Well, China bashing is ok as long as people are getting fired for it:

By the way, livejournal works fine for me in Shanghai. Sometime, sites are not blocked because of the Great Firewall; simply crappy Internet service. Business get away with crappy services hiding behind their mysterious Chinese facade...

nk --

Unlike you, I am not obsessed with China so that when I look in the mirror to assess myself, China does not even enter into the equation. I look much closer to home and ask how I am treating my family and my friends and my community. I actually find it rather strange that you would even think it would be otherwise.

I think your analogy to IBM is also a completely false one. IBM knew the uses to which its machines were being put. I (and many others) truly believe that engaging China is the best mechanism for changing China. I can certainly see how others would disagree with that and I do not consider myself any more nor any less moral than them because of that. I saw a quote from David Halberstam the other day that I very much liked and it was where he talked about how when he matured he came to realize that he could disagree vehemently with people regarding politics and still consider them to be a great person. Tip O'Neil and Ronald Reagon had that maturity.

I am hoping you someday reach that level.

Oh, and don't bother coming back to me with the quote that extremism in the defense of liberty is no crime because I agree with that but consider it inapplicable here because the issue is not whether there should be liberty or not, but how best to achieve it. You are trying to act as though there is a dispute regarding the ends, when in reality it is simply a dispute as to the best means.

chriswaugh_bj --

Of course you are right about Turkmenistan.

What do you mean by "South River Ovine Flesh on a Stick?"

Thank you for pointing out the absurdity of comparing Mr. Carr and me to Nazis. I just chalked that up to nh's immaturity as anyone who is mature would know that crying "holocaust" at every turn both belittles the enormity of the holocaust and thereby chips away at it as an historical event while at the same time making all who are serious simply shut down in disgust.

I laugh everytime I hear an athlete on TV talk about giving 110% (100% is no longer good enough), just as I laugh at nh for comparing China in Tibet to the Nazi's treatment of the Jews. This is actually a shame because China's handling of Tibet is obviously a very serious issue.

Mr. Li --

So what, you are not denying there is censorship are you?

Forgive a ridiculous metaphor but imagine a butterfly just out of reach; wildly swinging a net merely drives it farther away.

I crave insight into China and all related issues, so I had hoped to learn more about the issue debated above. The emotional tone precludes that. I confess from the outset I know more about how a healthy debate should proceed than about China or those who do business in China, so my comment here primarily concerns the former. I'm unqualified to answer any fundamental questions here, so I'll do what I can, I'll ask a few:
1. what kinds of governments should we reform or, if that's impossible/futile, oppose outright?
2. if that's the end, which means are effective?
3. are sanctions, non-participation, refusal to do business, etc effective and if so in which circumstances?

China's is not the world's only imperfect government. Only after reaching a broad consensus about these fundamental perameters can we develop objective criteria and apply them to EVERY government. That might intrigue readers and enlighten me. Proclaiming one's own view as self-evident and dismissing an opponent's as irrational hyperbole gets us nowhere. I seldom trust simple solutions to complex issues. The truth about this issue is likely to be complex and elusive. And it's important, it's worth digging for.

Perhaps I'm reading the wrong blog and comments? If all you want is to let off steam, my apologies to all. I've followed China Law Blog for some time and I'm astounded at the plethora of guises through which this issue peeks and the diversity of opinions. Directly or indirectly, almost every article and comment addresses this issue. I remain unconvinced by either side. If this blog isn't the right place to dig for this truth, please direct me to one that is.

Immature or realist?

Doing business with China helps pay for those 900 missiles pointed at Taiwan, helps China fund the Kim Jong Il and Myanmar regimes, maintain political prisons and assist the extermination of native Tibetan and Uyghur cultures in those occupied territories.

Hu and Wen were along with Peng Li in Tiananmen square to talk to students, and it was Peng who helped push for the PLA to crush them. Hu's record in Tibet suggests mass executions of Tibetan monks and their supporters.

All aided by trade with China. And what do we get in return for trading with china? Chinese claims on more Indian territory, poisonous pet food and now melamin has been found in human food products made with ingredients manufactured in China, and apparently this practice has been going on for years while excess wheat and rice in the US sits in silos and rots.

David Li -

Yes.

CLB:

I suppose you buy into the idea of different definitions of morality?
http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_china-claims-arunachal-pradesh-as-chinese-territory_1063888