China Law Blog

In my last week in Beijing, my tandem and I were looking back to all the weeks of study and things we had seen during my stay, while feasting over a steaming plate of plain jaozi. Certainly the history of China or comparative world history had rarely been a matter of chatting during the period at the university there, but at one point I was curious and couldn't help asking her "what about Taiwan?" and later "why is Tibet such a brag for chinese?" I was puzzled and definitely surprised to learn how much the history they are taught, is all but super-partes. I felt that the university student in front of me, same age, basically same clothes and manners - if I might say - but deriving from different cultures, just couldn't stand thinking that there might be chances that historical events did not happen in a certain way or some didn't even happen. There had been no day in which I had seen her almost go through the roof about something we were talking about. Totally unexpectedly, I touched a nerve. It was not a good feeling. Views she had from school books and most likely chats with friends about Taiwan's independence and the Dalai Lama's permanent exile were quite alarming. I then didn't insist on showing her other facts about the history I studied in Europe, but surely I almost choked on that last dumpling.

He who writes history books has great powers in countries like China in this epoque.

Ric --

YES. And there must be some famous quote out there about how those who write history control the present or something along those lines. Jeremiah?

It's not hard to see why Japanese get away with white washing the history in Asia from Ric's response. It's easy to point the finger at China and say "see, you Chinese are doing the same thing." Any discussion involving Taiwan, Tibet and China are destined for a flame war. Can we for once examine what Japan is doing instead of telling Chinese to shut up?

I was in Yasukuni Shine last week and there was a description for Pearl Harbor: it's an act of self defense against Western Imperialism. How about that for history?

To Ric:
If you want to teach us about "the chances that historical events did not happen in a certain way or some didn't even happen" , I am also very glad to discuss whether or not there was Holocaust,and show you evidence that you can't stand thinking either.

By the way, I hope you stop niggling about history and begin to use your head: can a rising country bear the humiliation that one of her province become independent? Or in other words, can she miss this chance to declare her new gained power?

Dong --

If you have any plans on denying the Holocaust, I will permanently ban you from this site. With pleasure.

Ric's comments were serious and well intentioned. Why don't you try disagreeing by using facts?

Mr. Li --

I agree. I agree because I do not like those who react to criticism of Chinese human rights violations by pointing at the United States. The reality is that nobody is perfect and no country is perfect and if we limit criticisms to those who are perfect, change will never happen. We must deal with the existing issues, regardless of the perfection of those raising them. Japan needs to deal with its past, whether or not China does.

I hate to resort to a cliche, but cliches are cliches for a reason, and two wrongs do not make a right.

I use what kind of facts? Does he or you know 24 histories or even heard about them? Does he or you know why China always tends to be integrated but Rome can't? Does he or you even know what "taiwan" means in Chinese? I do not want to teach those guys who pretend to know all but i n fact know noting but bias.

I think what we have here is a illustration on how Koizumi and Abe can get away with their stunts to pander to Japanese neo-con and their intent to raise nationalism in Japan and seek for the permanent seat in the UN security council.

China's military rising is nothing comparing to Koizumi's stunt a couple years ago challenging the pacified constitution in breaking 1% GDP limit of the "self-defense" budget in the shoveled-down-the-throat-by-American Japanese constitution. Japanese current defense budget is $47 billions a year (China $30 billions). Scared of Iran getting the bomb in 10 years? The estimate is Japan can get fully functional nuclear program online in a year if it wants to. The military power of "self-defense force" of Japan already ranked 6th in the world. The generation of Japanese growing up with the white wash "we are the victims of WWII' history cooked by the current administration will also be the generation be paying dearly for the broken social security system.

Maybe I am being the alarmist here but that's a pretty scary scenario. Under the Zen praying, sushi eating, tea drinking and animi watching facade, a generation of Japanese will grow up without the memory of its past and hope for the future. And they are equipped with a very large arsenals and leading edge technologies.

I was watching a group 5 years old Japanese boy in front of the model of WWII Kamikaze torpedo in Yasukuni Shrine. The admiration from the innocent children's faces can't be more scary...

Dong --

Mostly, I don't know what the hell you are talking about, nor do I care. It is apparent you cannot confine yourself to nor even address the issues at hand.

David:
Why does China deserve to belong on the UNSC and Japan does not? Japan has apologized publicly for its past and give China $1 billion USD a year for 30 years. Mao refused the compensation that McAurthur forced Japan to pay. And China's constitution has no defense spending limits as Japan's does.
Maybe if China had not ignored the UN negotiated EEZ around senkaku and set up drilling rigs in waters that China agreed were Japanese, Japan wouldn't feel the need to increase its defense spending. Chinese subs also regularly get chased out of Okinawan waters, violation the 12 mile limit and also ignore international accords to surface when caught, then leave.

That being said, Asia as a whole is about where Europe was right before WW1 from a social perspecitve, just with bigger, badder weapons.

Mr Li, I agree wholeheartedly. The more I see Abe and his crowd the more worried I am. Your vision of the future does seem rather alarmist now, but I agree it is entirely possible.

Dong: "I do not want to teach those guys who pretend to know all but i n fact know noting but bias."

Might I recommend looking in a mirror?

David Li said:
"Can we for once examine what Japan is doing instead of telling Chinese to shut up?"

We can examine what Japan is doing. But I don't think that doing that, and telling China to shut up should be mutually exclusive.

Both should be done. Because both are at fault.

"Why does China deserve to belong on the UNSC?"

There is a interesting history how PRC got the seat on UNSC and they have America to thank for. Any topic involving China and Japan will have us using the cliche a lot so I am saying it here again: two wrong doesn't make a right.

Mr. Li --

I do not fault you for being wary of Japan, but I tend to believe their military expenditures are intended for defense.

nanheyangrouchuan --

Okay.

chriswaugh-bj --

I like your mirror comment. I mean, nobody was claiming to know it all other than Dong, who really never said anything factual.

Pandapassport --

I completely agree. Both should be done. China recently issued a human rights report on the United States and many act as though that should cause the US to shut up regarding China human rights issues. It should not. We must look at what is going on in all countries.

"Japan has apologized publicly for its past and give China $1 billion USD a year for 30 years."

Yes, Japan has apologized in the past but now they are thinking about withdrawing one of those apologies. That's why we're talking about this. And Japan doesn't GIVE China $1 billion USD a year. Japan at one point in the past made LOANS of approximately $1 billion a year to China. These LOANS usually comes with various conditions and need to be paid back along with interest.

"Mao refused the compensation that McAurthur forced Japan to pay."

China did renounce compensation from Japan but it had nothing to do with MacArthur. When WWII ended, Mao was still living in a cave in northern Shaanxi. By the time the PRC and Japan established relations in 1972 and the PRC decided to waive all war reparations, MacArthur was long gone from the scene.

"And China's constitution has no defense spending limits as Japan's does."

There is no such spending limit in Japan's constitution. It was customary for Japan to limit its defense spending to 1% of GDP but this was given up in the 1980's.

"Maybe if China had not ignored the UN negotiated EEZ around senkaku"

What UN negotiated EEZ? There has NEVER been any UN involvement on the Diaoyu/Senkaku issue. Also the UN Law of the Sea states that only inhabited islands have associated exclusive economic zones, which would rule out the Diaoyu/Senkaku islands.

"... and set up drilling rigs in waters that China agreed were Japanese"

Again, you got your facts completely backwards. The Chinese drilling platforms are located in Chinese EEZ even according to Japanese claim lines.

"Chinese subs also regularly get chased out of Okinawan waters"

Regularly? You mean the single incident in 2004 in which a Chinese submarine suffering from technical problems wandered into Japanese waters and for which China apologized for?

Dan,

What a crazy idea to talk about China-Japan issues! You know it is still a vivid concern for both countries. For one time, I will compliment my country; Japan and China shall take example from Germany and France. The latest countries have seen the same atrocities during WWII than the Asian countries even worse I think. We have made peace for each other and every 6 months France and Germany have a summit to strengthen our relationship at all levels. We even have a common TV channel ARTE where speakers are German and French. Our history books teach to youngsters the events of WWII the same way.

"I tend to believe their military expenditures are intended for defense."

Is there any country whose military expenditure is for offense? All wars are fought in the name of self-defense.

Japan's military spending is $47 billions annually with other $20 billions or so by the US to maintain several bases in Japan. SDF has only 200,000 or so enlisted so personnel cost is only a small part of it. What is Japan doing with rest of the budget?

"These LOANS usually comes with various conditions and need to be paid back along with interest."

The Japanese aren't requiring the loans to be repaid, however. They save face by not outright giving money to China for its past wrongs but China gets the money for free. The loans were suspended in retaliation for the EEZ infringements and the renegade submarine.

"By the time the PRC and Japan established relations in 1972 and the PRC decided to waive all war reparations, MacArthur was long gone from the scene."

McAurthur ordered the payment at the end of WW2 to China, both Mao and Chiang were made aware of this award, I'm not sure about Chiang, but Mao refused it long before the 70s. Soon after, Japan began its "loan" program.

"There is no such spending limit in Japan's constitution. It was customary for Japan to limit its defense spending to 1% of GDP but this was given up in the 1980's."

Japan's constitution restricts military spending to non-force projection systems. There may be a monetary limit but I'd have to check. China on the other hand does not count military related R&D, space activities or civilian payroll as part of its military budget.

"What UN negotiated EEZ? There has NEVER been any UN involvement on the Diaoyu/Senkaku issue. Also the UN Law of the Sea states that only inhabited islands have associated exclusive economic zones, which would rule out the Diaoyu/Senkaku islands."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/FG27Dh03.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4915178.stm

"Regularly? You mean the single incident in 2004 in which a Chinese submarine suffering from technical problems wandered into Japanese waters and for which China apologized for?"

yeah, technical problems...and yet refused to surface then leave as dictated by international convention. Even the Russians surfaced when caught by Nordic ASW teams during the cold war.
But even now PLAN subs regularly troll the waters around Okinawa, the JSDF and USN regularly watch them and its easy because they sound like underwater freight trains.

Monsieur Guerel --

Good point. All I wanted to do was to make a jab at Japan for denying what we all know to be true. I probably should have known better.

Yes, but you have to admit that the typical French person still neither likes nor trusts Germans and it would not surprise me if the typical German feels the same way about the French. Old hatreds die hard.

Speaking of German and France, one of the main reason for Japan's attempt to UNSC is commercial. Japan has advanced military technologies it wants to sell. Japan wants to play in the munition market which German is one of the leading player but Japan can't enter the market. In a way, it's hard to blame Japanese to feel unfair in their post-WWII treatment.

Mr. Li --

You have got to be kidding? Are you really saying Japan has been mistreated after WWII?

Japan is not mistreated after WWII but there are a couple issues for the Japanese politicians to exploit. Arm sales is one of such issue, especially comparing to German. Japan is prohibited from international arm trade, even in the area of dual use technologies such as advanced precision manufacture. Why is German allowed in the trade but not Japan? It's easy to for Japanese politician exploiting the issue and screaming "unfair treatment."

German does about $8 billions a year in arm export. If Japan is allowed into the field, they can easily get to the same figure or higher. $8 billions in arm export is good for $80 billions in GDP. That's a 2% bump for GDP growth with Japan's GDP growth at 2% these days.

It's almost a perfect issue for Japanese politicians as it raises nationalism and economy at the same time with sympathy appeal to their constituents.

Mr. Li --

I see what you are saying. I guess the difference between Japan and Germany just comes down to the agreements they signed at the conclusion of WWII. I do not know my history on this very well, however, so can someone help me out here?

The difference between German and Japanese exports and restrictions might have to do with which country really got flogged after WW2. Japan got nuked twice, but all of Germany was in ruins and German companies have been taken to the cleaners not just by the Jewish community but also by other groups whose members were persecuted. Germany was also cut in half and occupied territory for 50 years.

By comparison, Japan got away pretty cleanly and its companies have not had to pay out such huge reparations.

I think Japan also wants to keep its military technology somewhat secretive. Whatever you export, some unintended party is going to get a hold of it and find out its strengths and weaknesses and Japan's biggest concern is the PLA getting a hold of such technology.

nanheyangrouchuan --

Taking someone to the cleaners means swindling. I would hardly describe the Jews and others getting compensated (not even close to in full) for the property and lives taken from them by the Germans as taking them to the cleaners. Partial justice would be a more appropriate phrase.

I've heard the reference used in regards to getting large sums of money without necessarily cheating them.

"I think Japan also wants to keep its military technology somewhat secretive. Whatever you export, some unintended party is going to get a hold of it and find out its strengths and weaknesses and Japan's biggest concern is the PLA getting a hold of such technology."

Actually, Japan has been found with most violations of munition export to China. Tokyo has been a hot bed for illegal international technology trade because it's relatively lax control on munition trade, especially dual use technologies such as precision manufacture equipments to super computers.

Koizumi's fight for munition export may just have China on top of the customer list. It is ironic but the only way Japan can gain support for legalizing the munition trade to China is to piss off China. ;)

nanheyangrouchuan --

I have heard it used that way also, but its original and still more common meaning is to fleece somone.

Mr. Li --

How's that?