So You Want To Practice International (China) Law? Part II
Nearly every week, I get a couple e-mails and/or calls from earnest law students seeking pearls of wisdom regarding how to break into international law or China law. I usually talk about the need to learn as many languages as possible and about the benefits of having lived overseas. A couple years ago, I gave a speech on international law careers at Indiana University School of Law and I am scheduled to be on a international law career panel at Seattle University Law School later this month. I am an expert on these issues only to the extent that I am in the business and I have very definite ideas as to what it takes.
I have no idea if my ideas on this would hold up to analysis, but I at least now know my views are part of the mainstream. Chris Carr over at the CalPolyMBA Blog just did a post, entitled "Critical Success Qualities for Expat Managers in China," summarizing what CEOs look for in choosing their China managers. This list comes from the book China CEO: Voices of Experience from 20 International Business Leaders (of which I have heard many good things and I have just started it). Interestingly (but not surprisingly) the traits these CEOs seek in their ex-pat managers for China are pretty much the exact same traits I find necessary to be a good international lawyer. Here is the list, with my comments in italics.
1. Technical and Corporate Expertise: Select people with a rock-solid professional background and an excellent knowledge of the company.
Yes. In the legal arena, this means get smart people.
2. International Expertise: A posting in China becomes vastly more manageable after an assignment either in an Asian location or another developing market, or both.
Absolutely. The key here is that the person who has spent time in another country tends to be better equipped to deal with other countries, including those countries to which he or she has never been. I have seen this time and again with both lawyers and clients. We have many clients who when their business dried up in one country moved nearly effortlessly to another country. We also see domestic companies that simply cannot make the leap to go international at all, when they really should. What you learn in one country (but obviously not everything) does help you in another.
3. Multicultural Mindset: When selecting an executive for an overseas posting, look for someone with an adventurous spirit, a sense of humor, and an open mind.
I completely agree and this applies to lawyers as much as to anyone else. In an article I wrote a long long time ago on doing business in emerging market countries, I stressed (and stressed again .... so I was repetitive back then):
Doing business in an emerging market means taking nothing for granted. I have a mantra for my own legal work in these countries that translates well to the business world: "Assume nothing, but assume that you are assuming things without even realizing you are doing so."
Things will be different. Very different. Things you take for granted in your home country might not exist in the emerging market country. Things you take for granted in your home country might be the exact opposite in the emerging market country. Things you think will be totally different in the emerging market country may be exactly the same. Things you thought you knew about emerging market countries based on what you know from another emerging market country may be completely different in a neighboring country, or even in another region within the same country.
The principle, one more time: Keep an open mind, and assume nothing.
4. Commitment to Learn: Learn from those around you. Listen to your employees, JV partners, clients, and customers.
Of course.
5. Humility: Be humble and avoid using an authoritarian style. Influencing and coaching is the way to get the best out of your Chinese employees.
Yes. This is also the way to get the best out of the lawyers in other countries with whom you will be working.
6. Strength: Be unyielding in defending core corporate values and culture.
Yes. And in the legal context this means doing things by the law, even if you see others around you not doing so.
7. Patience: Be patient; use a step-by-step approach in China, not a Big Bang approach.
I will borrow again from my emerging markets article:
Exercise Extreme Patience. This principle stems from the maxim that everything takes twice as long as you think it will. If it takes twice as long in the West, triple that in emerging market countries. You'll go in both as a businessperson and a teacher�and in both roles, the learning curve of your partner will almost certainly take way more time to deal with than you think.
For example, many emerging market countries have a history where "bad business" meant "thinking long-term." A year or two after the fall of Soviet communism, I was involved in a matter where an investor put $250,000 into a Russian joint venture. The business very quickly was making good money and all indicators pointed towards steadily increasing profitability. But, quite quickly, the Russian company stole the $250,000. Was it so irrational for him to think so short term in a country where the government and tax systems had such a history of unpredictability?
8. Speed: Be flexible and quick. Stay well informed; the business environment in China is in a constant and rapid flux, probably much more so than in other markets.
This is true of international law as well, and if one is going to practice in this area, one has to enjoy and thrive on constant change and even constant uncertainty. I was talking the other day with my friend, Dan Hull, lawyer extraordinaire at Hull McGuire, and he was telling me how he has abandoned all pretext of what he calls "PCness" and he now just tells potential hires there that they had better be prepared to work tirelessly just to keep up. I can certainly vouch for Dan being right when it comes to practicing international law.
9. Guanxi-building: Build your guanxi not only internally (with subordinates, peers and superiors) but also externally with clients, suppliers and government officials). A strong guanxi network is a fundamental element of your success in China.
As a lawyer, both you and your practice will benefit by your doing more than just staying in your office poring over law books. Get to know your clients, your fellow lawyers, good people in the industries in which you are working, and treat them with respect. I see this as basic good business for anyone.
So you want to be an international (or China) lawyer? Conform to this list.
Comments (34)
Read through and enter the discussion by using the form at the endMicah - February 14, 2007 6:08 AM
For a person hoping to become a specialist in Chinese Law, what are your thoughts on the English-language LL.M. programs offered at BeiDa, Tsinghua, and HKU? Are they worth the money or connections?
LaoLao - February 14, 2007 6:51 AM
Excellent post. Though I only practiced as a jailhouse lawyer, so to speak, can add number 10?
10. Always be prepared to tell the client what they don't want to here.
Hearing the bad news is a sign of good council.
Sivos - February 14, 2007 9:12 AM
What comments would you make regarding proficiency in Mandarin? Has a foreign lawyer wishing to move to China got no prospects unless he is fairly fluent in Mandarin speaking? What about character reading? Are firms recruiting lawyers with English language as their mother tongue and basic / intermediate Mandarin skills?
nanheyangrouchuan - February 14, 2007 10:23 AM
The english language law lectures in China are just gloss-overs from what I'm told. Foreigners can actually get a chinese law degree, but the classes are in chinese. You must be able to pass the HSK level 4 test just to be considered. But only native born chinese may practice law in court and they cannot be attached to any foreign entity.
China Law Blog - February 14, 2007 10:23 AM
Micah --
Good question. How much do they cost? Will you get to meet top Chinese nationals there as students?
My GUESS is that getting an English language LLM from one of those programs will help you a bit, but when it comes to hiring by the big US law firms, they are still going to focus primarily on your US law school record.
China Law Blog - February 14, 2007 10:28 AM
Lao Lao --
I agree 100%. So honesty should be in the 10.
I was fortunate in that the senior lawyer on the first motion I lost taught me the rules on this right away. I had lost a motion and returned to the office. Senior lawyer instantly said we need to call the client right away. I was like, "no, give me a minute to figure it all out and what I need to say." His response was, no, if we had won we would have called him right away and when we lose we call right away. It is important he knows what happened and it is important he knows we do not keep anything from him. On top of that, how would it be if he learns about it from someone else? We called him right then and there.
I actually had a case once that we were able to get dismissed on jurisdictional grounds. No big deal, because the other side would just be able to re-file the case and be delayed only 30 days or so. But maybe a few days after we got plaintiff's case dismissed, my client called up the plaintiff to talk about trying to settle it before the new case would be filed. WHOA. Turns out plaintiff's lawyer had not told plaintff about the dismissal and plaintiff was furious. Relationship between plaintiff and his counsel was never the same. I have a million stories like this but you are absolutely right.
China Law Blog - February 14, 2007 10:32 AM
Sivos --
I do not really know, but here are my thoughts, based more on what I have seen with a few law students than based on what I have been told by any law firms.
My sense is that the better your academic credentials, the worse your Mandarin can be, and vice versa. But, it seems to me that most of the big firms (all of them?) will have you put in 2-3 years in the home office before you have much of a shot of going to China at all. I know some mighty fine lawyers (including one who heads up the China office of a top British firm) who do not speak Mandarin. Many of these guys practiced in HK for many years.
So I guess it is really just a combination.
I would love to hear from others on this.
Chris Carr - February 14, 2007 10:55 AM
Good post Dan.
The CEO book also has a nice "pros and cons of being an expat in China" chapter -- more eye opening reading for those thinking of jumping into the China game.
Eric Dickinson - February 14, 2007 2:33 PM
I do not believe there is much competition for business among American lawyers in China. What's tough is getting hired by the US firm with a China office.
But how is the market for US lawyers that want to be hired or take consulting positions with Chinese firms? Although the salary would be minimal, I see potential here.
Also, concerning LL.M programs in China, they are probably a waste of time. You'll merely learn the basics of Chinese law (which you should already know) but you'll never be able to compete in that arena anyway. If you want to use academia to massage the guanxi, why not take an MBA program and maybe meet some future clients?
Eric - February 14, 2007 2:50 PM
If you don't speak Chinese, the only clients you'll get are those who are fluent in English. What fun is that?
China Law Blog - February 14, 2007 3:54 PM
Chris --
I can hardly wait.
China Law Blog - February 14, 2007 3:59 PM
Eric Dickerson --
If I understand you correctly, I disagree. There is quite a bit of competition among the big American firms in China for the big deals. My understanding is that many of these offices are losing money.
Chinese firms have been very slow to hire on Americans and when they do so, they pay can be not just minimal, but shockingly low. On top of that, my sense is that most of the Americans hired by these Chinese firms are not terribly good or terribly experienced and they oftentimes are used as little more than glorified interpreters and for prestige.
You are right that an American lawyer will not be in China competing with Chinese law firms for Chinese legal work, but American lawyers there are expected to know Chinese law and to be able to incorporate it to fit the needs of the foreign client.
I am generally of the view that one should not go to school just for gaining guanxi. It is too expensive in terms of time and money for just that. Of course, that might be a good side benefit.
China Law Blog - February 14, 2007 4:00 PM
Eric--
The fun is that those are the clients who pay. Right now, the reality is that very few Chinese companies value legal services highly enough.
Therese - February 14, 2007 5:50 PM
Re: HKU/QH/BD
We have a number of graduates of HKU (being an HK firm), but all of my fellow foreigners (and some of the locals) have either Austrailian, UK, or US educational backgrounds, and the US ones had China-related degrees prior to entering law school.
The China Law listserv can give you a better response about the Mainland universities, but from what I understand, they, like HKU, are good for a year/semester for experience's sake, but US law school is still the way to go.
China Law Blog - February 14, 2007 6:16 PM
Therese --
I completely agree that the best places (and I do not even think this is in dispute) to get a law degree are the US, the UK, and Australia. In fact, I thought the question regarding getting a Chinese LLM was predicated on first getting a US law degree.
No amount of China language and knowledge can substitute for good legal training, which, in the end, is one of the prime values you can offer to a non-Chinese client.
A few weeks ago, an American company asked us to form a Chinese company for a Chinese national with whom this American company wanted to do business. It took me a few minutes to realize it made absolutely no sense to have the Chinese national use my firm to set up a wholly domestically owned company in China and I referred him to a domestic Chinese law firm to do the work. In that situation, the American law degree and the American cultural and business knowledge are worthless and there is no reason not to have that sort of work done at Chinese rates. This is not true though when we are called upon to do work for American or European or Australian companies.
Wabisabi - February 14, 2007 9:24 PM
My impression is that perhaps at some point back in time, one could get a foot in the door in becoming a lawyer specialized in Chinese law without being able to speak Chinese. Those lawyers have filtered up the ranks and are now in senior positions at many international law firms. And because they are seniors, they could have niceties such as having everything translated to them.
But it may not be the case for recent law graduates. In fact, the HK office of the American biglaw I work at do not take in law graduates who do not speak Mandarin, Cantonese and English fluently anymore. Granted, these young people are likely to be Chinese who had gone to school in the West for years.
But the bar just keeps going up. I know law graudates/students who have another working tongue besides the three named above.
China Law Blog - February 14, 2007 10:21 PM
Wabisabi --
I think you are right. Virtually every new hire now speaks at least some Chinese. Yet, more senior people do get transferred stateside to China, even today, without the ability to speak a bit of Chinese. I know of at least one Seattle firm that did that within the last year or so.
Sivos - February 15, 2007 10:33 AM
The English newspaper The Times today had an article relating to etiquette in modern China. In relation to guanxi (point 9 in your list) it said the following which I thought was a great way of looking at it:-
"Guanxi is probably the fundamental building block of living in China.
It's a currency and, like a currency, it's no good if you don't spend it.
Guanxi is also about giving. Don't save up for the big favour because the more you give the more you will get."
China Law Blog - February 15, 2007 10:45 AM
Sivos --
I strongly agree and I strongly disagree. How's that for lawyer speak?
I wish I had never even used the word guanxi, because I hate that word. Having said that though, I like the The Times' definition.
But the reality is that guanxi as defined by the Times (which is how it should be defined) is nothing more than what in the West is sometimes called "Help marketing," which is nothing more than the idea that a great way to get business is to be out there helping people however you can, without really even thinking about the return.
This is a good way to live and a good way to market and it should be done by all lawyers and service people, even those with absolutely no connection with China.
Micah - February 15, 2007 11:47 AM
These are all great comments.
To answer your earlier question, the programs cost about $20k. You mentioned MBA programs, tho--what are the good ones?
Audall - February 15, 2007 12:14 PM
"Assume nothing, but assume that you are assuming things without even realizing you are doing so."
I just wrote a post on a very similar topic about the ways differences in other countries become apparent. Some are simple and obvious. Some are very subtle and only come with extensive time. And some will smack you in the face with their outright peculiarity (like an amusement theme park located directly next to, almost on top of, a golf course).
The challenge of understanding that you don't understand, but you will inevitably try to understand from your own perspective--it's almost a skill you develop. Because you constantly catch your own assumptions and coming back to your own perspective. You could think yourself in circles, but the bottom-line is that it requires a certain level of introspection, questioning, and humility to work through these things.
Startuplay Blog - February 16, 2007 10:48 PM
I lost track of who left which comments, but here are some thoughts:
* Foreign companies are the only target market for law firms in China. There is no benefit in providing services to Chinese firms (unless you do some kind of VC relationship building) because legal practice is not upheld here
* Hiring Mandarin speaking employees only? I think this is often done more for image building (i.e. Silicon Valley companies want to deal only with Chinese-Americans). Fact is, most international firms still have Chinese partners and huge Chinese staff that do all the work. The importance of a foreign lawyer, is the customer facing aspect (i.e. I need to have someone speaking good english with clear understanding of what I need).
* Again, when it comes to China - a lot of things are highly biased/racist/what ever you wanna call it. But then try going to Russia, not even the color of your skin will save you there.
* Finally, there are a lot of U.S. law firms that enter China to serve as V.C. gateway for Chinese startups. These firms usually have no trouble taking non-mandarin speaking law years, since their clients are usually western minded companies.
China Law Blog - February 16, 2007 10:52 PM
Micah -- I really do not know which are the best MBA programs in China, nor even which MBA programs in the states have a good China program. Chris Carr?
China Law Blog - February 16, 2007 10:59 PM
Audall -- You are definitely right about thinking oneself in circles. But really the most difficult thing is making assumptions without even realizing you are doing so.
China Law Blog - February 16, 2007 11:02 PM
Startuplay --
Thanks for checking in.
In saying "legal practice is not upheld here" you are saying Chinese companies do not tend to value legal services as we Western lawyers believe such services should be valued, you are absolutely right.
I think your comments on VC law firms are correct.
I do not understand what you are saying about Russia, but I will say that some of the Russia. Are you saying Russians tend to be racist?
Chris Carr - February 16, 2007 11:40 PM
Dan and Micah,
Ah, music to my ears ....
Why, our Cal Poly MBA program, which takes students to China each year (www.calpolymbatrip.com), is one you should consider, of course! The bang for the buck my program provides is rock solid (i.e., the tuition at my school is nowhere near the $39,500 Yale charges; Cal Poly is also located in one of the most beautiful areas of California -- on the left we have wineries and beautiful hills with running and biking trails, on the right the beach).
Having said that, there are many different types of MBA programs out there. Many good ones; many bad ones. It all depends on your needs, goals, funds, location preference, where and whether you can get in, etc.
Micah, feel free to email me off line if you wish to chat more (ccarr@calpoly.edu).
By the way, my own strong bias is that a JD and MBA combo is a much more powerful combo that will serve your business clients well than a JD-LLM. Law school does a great job of teaching us how to think, but does a lousy job of helping us understand business and business issues (e.g., if have yet to meet a law school grad who can read and interpret a financial statement). The MBA, obviously, deepens your knowledge of business.
Chris Carr - February 17, 2007 7:55 AM
PS
My last comment post was missing an important word -- it should have read -- "I have yet to meet a NEW/FRESH law school grad who can read and interpret a financial statement".
I don't think I learned to read one until I was a few years out of law school, and had to learn it on the fly and by necessity. Further, I hated accounting in college and took the easiest prof I could find. I thought I had beat the system and would never have to know accounting again. Then, once I became a lawyer, one of my first depos was that .... of an accountant.
The Gods extracted their revenge ....
If you are going to do more school, get an MBA. Most attorneys are business attorneys, either by desire or default (i.e., those clients pay).
I have never quite understaood what an LLM does for an attorney other then fill up one my line on a CV. Most LLMs I know are tax guys ... and for me, dealing with legal tax issues all day would be death by a thousand paper cuts. But to each his own!
China Law Blog - February 17, 2007 9:31 PM
Chris --
I generally agree with you regarding LLM degrees. It makes sense for foreign lawyers to get an LLM in the US, but other than a tax LLM, they tend to do very little for American lawyers.
I was a French/Political Science major in undergrad, but knew how to read a balance sheet upon graduation from law school. I graded MBA tests and an MBA prof suggested I take the beginning MBA accounting course and I did. It has proven hugely valuable.
So there!
Chris Carr - February 17, 2007 11:55 PM
Hi Dan.
Okay, you were one of 3 graduating lawyers in the US that year who could read and understand a balance sheet upon graduation.
I say that in jest.
I know there were/more each year, but not because of anything they taught us in law school. :)
Notwithstanding that statement, I actually loved law school, learned an enormous amount, and had a wonderful experience with it.
James - April 20, 2007 6:46 AM
Hi,
Just discovered this blog.
I have a Law degree from England and I'm interested in pursuing an international law career. Currently I'm unsure about my next step so I'm living in teaching in Korea. 1 yr after coming out here I haven't made any progress regarding moving on in the law world. I was wondering if you think doing a Legal MA in China would be beneficial, or wld going onto the Chinese Bar exams be a better option?
The general consensus seems to be completing the LPC in my home country and practicing there for a while, but going back is not something i'm planning to do.
Thanks
China Law Blog - April 21, 2007 7:05 AM
James --
I have no idea. First off, as far as I know, British citizens simply cannot become licensed to practice law in China. Getting an MA in China would be beneficial in terms of learning about China, but it probably would not have all that much impact on your job prospects. The reality is that the foreign firms in China generally want lawyers who did extremely well in law school, have some experience practicing law, and speak and read Chinese. Getting MORE legal education does not fit all that well with these requirements.
James - April 21, 2007 9:59 AM
Thank you for your swift (and direct) response.
So,from what you know and your experience what recommendations can you give for someone in my position? I mean, if further legal education in China/Japan is going to prove futile in the hunt to make it into the legal profession outside the UK. If legal education is a no go then I really have no idea as to what could be the next useful step.
Sorry to present you with such a open ended, annoying and somewhat immature question.
China Law Blog - April 21, 2007 2:53 PM
James --
Not a problem, as I am asked that same question just about every week, usually from a more American context and here is what I say.
The big US law firms in China (and in most other countries as well) generally hire only those in the top 10% from top law schools. They generally hire such people for the United States, planning to send them to China in a few years. These firms pay $150,000+ as a starting salary. These firms typically provide phenomenal training and I am strongly of the view that if you can get a job with one of these firms, you should do so and you should stay on for at least 2-3 years, no matter how tough it gets. I started out with such a firm and I have never regretted it.
There are almost no firms other than the big firms with branch offices in places like China. So if you cannot get a job with one of these firms, your best choice is to try to get a job with a domestic law firm. All of the big Korean law firms hire US and British attorneys, but nearly all of these attorneys speak and read Korean. The Korean law firms pay their US/British attorneys pretty well. Many Chinese law firms also are interested in hiring American and British lawyers, but the pay at these firms can be extremely low. But it is a good way to break into the market.
Another option is the public sector. Look for jobs with governmental or quasi-governmental bodies or charities. The sad reality, however, is that there are huge numbers of very talented lawyers who speak Chinese who will almost certainly never find a law related job in China. Unless one has a ton of international law experience, the chances of getting a job in China without at least passable Chinese is also extremely low.
Sorry to be such a downer, but just stating the facts as I see them.
Kevin - February 11, 2008 10:36 AM
Hi,
All the discussions are about how foreign lawyers get in China's legal market. I quite in the other extreme am a Chinese national in the middle of a J.D. program with a US law school.But the school ranking is low as a matter of fact. I am now very suspicious that the US law degree will do any good to me in term of finding a firm job in China. Before I landed myself in current law school, I received a doctoral degree in political economy from another U.S. university. Still before that, I received a Bachelor degree in law from Beida. I would try to build a career in commercial laws as I have a few years of work experience at a multinational company, not legally related though. Please tell me that my career plan is not totally daydreaming since I find the hiring conditions for some US big firm's Chinese branches are set exclusively to those graduates from top law schools with a distinguished class ranking. My law school, however, is now a second tier one. Is this the time to change my career plan?