China Law Blog

Wasn't that guy some dam protester who knew too much.

First of all: great post, thanks for the link. I've always enjoyed ACB's blog.

I'm particularly interested in the new regulations effective 1/1/07 and what effects this will have on local courts and criminal cases. During the Qing dynasty, all capital cases, in theory, had to go to the capital for review by the Board of Punishments and ultimately, again in theory, had to be approved by the emperor. Did it always work this way? Of course not, but many local officials lost their jobs (and sometimes a good deal more) when a prisoner died in their care without the proper channels being notified.

Cases like this make me wonder how much of a disconnect has existed between center and local up to now. Did provincial authorities or central authorities know of these cases and turn a blind eye, or did they find out after the fact, when it was a fait accompli, and sided with local officials to avoid 'turmoil?'

Will the new regulations prevent cases such as this, or create conditions whereby local 'troublemakers' are dealt with even further off the grid?

This is a particularly horrific example of injustice, and I hope that those responsible wil lone day be made to answer for their actions in a court of law.

As you say Dan, the speed and secrecy of this execution may very well have been the unintended consequence of a progressive new law - but it is not the planned introduction of the new law itself that is to bame, but rather, the cowardly and murderous nature of those individuals responsible.

nanheyangrouchuan --

???

Jeremiah (Granite Studio) --

Good questions. I was just reading the other day that the Supreme Court had to approve all executions up to 1983. I also read today that the Supreme Court is saying it will be ready for its new task beginning in 2007 and that executions will be used only very very sparingly. I think the center (Beijing) is very serious about this and I expect the number of executions to decline.

MAJ --

I completely agree, and as I just mentioned in my comment in response to Jeremiah, I see executions declining in 2007.

Well congratulations for your 3rd place at the best Asian Blog! You deserve the first one with the insightful information you provide everyday about China.

Jeremiah does raise good questions about what direction China is headed in. My impression is that the Cultural Revolution left China somewhat decentralized, at least more decentralized than the party wanted people to believe. As a student in China from 1981 to 1985, I constantly heard the term 'feudalism' used to describe the real political system. What people meant by that was that power was shared betwen the center and modern-day warlords (military commanders) with tremendous local authority, some of whom were known to flout central authority on a regular basis. I believe this phenomenon survived at least to the Jiang Zemin era, if not beyond that. The 'warlords' just started to morph into businessmen around about the mid-80s.

In 1982 I once witnessed the entire city of Changchun come to a complete standstill mid-day while 10 prisoners (on their way to execution) were paraded through the streets on the back of Liberation army vehicles with dunce caps over their heads. If you believed the dazibao, these were people guilty of heinous crimes, not political offenses. One suspects that if permission was required from the Supreme Court, such permission might have been a little bit like our FISA court permission where you can sometimes ask retroactively and often not ask at all.

Overall, the fact that China tolerates even a small measure of dissent is a startling contrast with the China that stumbled out of the Cultural Revolution. But I am with all of you who believe it can (and will) get a lot better.

So I'm wondering what recourse Chinese and Westerners have if they are forced into prisons or mental hospitals? Are there any China based lawyers who will take these cases on?

Off topic from this thread but they have it coming:

China likes to be first, let's give a hand for the middle kingdom! And China's first truly imperial capital snatched the silver from the Indian upstarts!

Here's another great contribution from the Inventors of Everything, the world's fastest time to take a species from thriving to extinct:
news.independent.co.uk/environment/article2083841.ece

Let's here it for the guardians of heaven everyone, all of us barbarians can only hope to accomplish such feats of greatness!!!!!!

i hope China recovers from this turmoil and i also hope that the Philipines where i'm from also does the same with their justice/injustice system...!!!

> During the Qing dynasty, all capital cases, in
> theory, had to go to the capital for review by
> the Board of Punishments and ultimately, again
> in theory, had to be approved by the emperor.
> Did it always work this way? Of course not...

Actually my understanding of the Qing judicial system is that capital cases actually did in practice work this way.

See the research of Thomas Buoye

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~thomas-buoye/

The "of course not" is an interesting comment since I think it reveals some assumptions about how the system worked that may or may not be present.

Joseph,

I am familiar with his work as well as other scholars who look at the Qing legal system including Melissa Macauley, Philip Huang, Matthew Sommer, and the older but still quite readable work on local government and administration by scholars such as Chu Tung-tsu and John Watt.

In many, if not most cases, the system did work. But there were certainly incidents where people were executed or died in the hands of local officials. It is telling that many of the latter suffered considerable consequences as a result.

In many ways the Qing legal system actually worked quite well, especially when compared to other 18th century systems. But by "of course" I meant that I wouldn't want to bet the rent money on there not being any cases where the system was circumvented or broke down, especially in the disturbances of the late Qing.

That's all.

Mr. Guerel --

Merci beaucoup. Vraiment. I really do appreciate your support.

I am honored to have come in third. When it started, I said that if I were going to lose, I would like to lose to One Man Bandwidth. Well I got my wish and now I wish I had simply won. Oh well.

Laowai --

The mountain is high and the emperor is fair away.

Not sure if the new Supreme Court review will always take place, but it is very likely it will take place much more often than now. Does not mean it will be 100% effective from the get-go, but it is a start.

Mr. Wang --

Thanks for checking in.

My tendency is to side with the "of course not," simply because I cannot believe China's center ever had 100% control over its provinces. I am basing it not on my knowledge of the Qing Dynasty (which is minimal), but on my knowledge of the application of laws, which are seldom 100% effective.

But, I have e-mailed Professor Buoye to ask him to step in and assist.

Jeremiah --

That is sort of how I responded to Mr. Wang before I read your comment. Thanks for checking in.

Nikeroo --

Thanks for checking in. There are actually a number of Chinese lawyers with great courage who fight hard for their criminal clients against the government. My firm has even had the opportunity to work with one of these lawyers as we appealled a harsh sentence imposed against our foreign client. I have no doubt this Chinese attorney did the best job he could for our client.

masterofthe --

Thanks for checking in. I wholeheartedly concur.

Congrats on 3rd in the Web Blogs...It is hard to win a popularity poll against teenagers and college students....

The great part of it all is: lots of new folks are now going to discover what an incredible resource you are...

Here is the .gif I thought I was going to be using. It is by the guy at http://platypus-society.net a blog by the class clown of the blogsphere...

Best,

LBH

The central government has never had 100% control over the provinces, but part of the trick is to maintain controls over key sectors. The main sector that the center has to have control over is the military, and there is an (and always been) an elaborate system in which military command has been separate from civil command. The administration of justice has been another area in which the center has tried to maintain some control. One curious aspect of this is that the judicial system of the PRC arose from the military justice system, and it's only in the last decade that the ex-PLA officers that formed much of the initial set of Chinese judges have retired.

Thanks for the clarification of "of course." Something that peaks my interest is when someone mentions "of course" because that assumes some assumptions that I'm unclear about.

Lonnie --

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mr. Wang --

I concur.