China Law Blog

Perhaps one reason there are so few lawyers in China is because most Chinese can't afford them. Would Californian lawyers work for a few hundred RMB per case? That's probably all avg Chinese could afford!

Or perhaps potential lawyers themselves see going to court against the government akin to bashing your head against the wall?:)

It is ironic isn't it?

In shanghai, there are probably 80-100 foreign law firms now, but the problem is that "technically" none of them are allowed to practice law. they are stripped of their titles as lawyers and given the highly distinguished title of consultants.... and this goes for any local Chinese lawyer who dares to cross the line and train in a large firm.

In fact, there is currently an issue with the level of activity that the foreign firms are practicing at, and it could become more restrictive soon... don't worry, there are a couple hundred lawyers on the case.

Whlie there are a number of firms that have less than reputable practices and offer little in the way of service to clients, there have been a number of returning Chinese who worked in the magic circle firms and are forming their own mid-tier firms that then partner with the foreign firms to actually execute the work done by the foreign firms.. not a bad niche.. and it is this segment that I believe the original article is trying to suggest needs to grow en mass.

China SDP -- I know too well about the crackdown on foreign lawyers as we were the ones who broke this story to the West: http://www.chinalawblog.com/chinalawblog/2006/05/international_l.html.

There is a shortage of lawyers in China outside the coastal cities and even within the coastal cities, there is a shortage of good international lawyers.

As much as we in the West love to hate lawyers, I am of the view that more lawyers would be good for China as they are likely to make it a more legalistic and just society.

Dezza --

Thanks for checking in.

I agree that most Chinese cannot afford lawyers, but to a certain extent, that is true in the West also. I was kidding with my implication of California lawyers moving to China for work.

Of course you were joking, Dan. I was just joking on your joke..

After watching law and order for over a decade, I have respect for lawyers..well criminal defense lawyers and prosecutors. Commercial lawyers..I dunno. Maybe they should make a TV show about you guys!

Dezza --

I feel much better now that you have clarified that. You should have known that we lawyers tend to take things very literally.

For TV shows about commercial lawyers, try watching reruns of Ally McBeal and LA Law. Like most TV shows, they started out strong and then faded into well earned oblivion.

Despite the fact that there are attorneys who are not solely interested in making money, there is plenty of money to be made in China as an American attorney. Even though foreign attorneys are not permitted to practice in China, I have collegues that are working in Chinese (not American) law firms and making a decent living even by American standards. What's truly exciting about working as an attorney in China is that you get to partake in the forming of a new legal system. What I enjoy most about the law is that it's not concrete, it's alive, it's all about your ability to formulate an argument, and there is nothing more vivacious than the youthful body of law in China.

Travis --

Thanks for checking in.

I agree China is exciting because the law changes every day, but to a certain extent, that is what makes the law exciting everywhere. Sure, the law is much better established in places like the United States does not mean that new interpretations and changes are not happening every day.

Steve Dickinson, my co-blogger, had a meeting with a bunch of Chinese judges a month or so ago and they were complaining to him that 90 percent of all Chinese cases go to trial because the law is so unclear. That is good for lawyers, but that will eventually start reeking havoc on business, particularly when Chinese lawyers start raising their rates.

Lack of lawyers? China? wow.. that thought never crossed my mind. Maybe this would contribute to the lack of strength in China's current law especially in trade and IPR.

For us American lawyers, part of the excitement is to help shape views of what our clients expect from the judicial system. Recently in Qingdao, I let local counsel know that our mutual client was not interested in "Let's Make a Deal," and although local counsel was concerned about alienating the judge, they slowly came around to understanding that the client's interest came first, not their own interest in maintaining their relationship with the court. Frankly, even in smaller places in the USA, the attitude is often not dissimilar.

Self-preservation can be highly limiting. I recently had much trouble locating a law firm which would agree to help register with the Ministry of Religions an American non-profit which was a huge, mainstream Buddhist association which contributes large sums of money to building schools and social welfare facilities in rural China. "Too sensitive" was the reason for the refusal to take the case. Not exactly the approach most American lawyers would take here. Developing the professional ethos of the Chinese bar will be a major challenge if our profession in China is to rise above simply a way to make more money.

Mr. Platek --

Thanks for checking in.

The problem with local counsel favoring his own standing with the judge (and opposing counsel for that matter) is a never ending one that we face wherever we go.

I have found there are two good solutions for it. The first is to establish a long term relationship with the local counsel with whom you work. That way he or she will know that this is not a one shot deal and that future work depends on the performance. Just recently, a company came to me after getting frustrated with the progress of their case in an Asian country. I contacted the local counsel who, and I am quoting directly here, told me that "now that you are on the case, we will do our best." I asked whether they had been doing their best all along and he replied that "it is difficult" becauase the opposing attorney went to the same law school but graduated two years earlier, but now that he knows that they are doing this work for one of their regular law firms...

2. The second thing is money. Let's say the lawyer charges domestic clients $100 and foreign clients $200 per hour and you know this. Many foreign lawyers and companies get the lawyer down to the $100 per hour. I don't. I tell them we will pay $150, but this means that I expect great service and no bs. I also talk about how many cases we have had in their city to let them know what will happen if they do well and what will happen if they do not.

There are countless cities all over the world where I am working with the same attorneys today that I worked with ten or more years ago.

Continuity and fairness are the key.

BTW, we have a great relationship with a great firm in Qingdao -- the Wincon firm. One of our summer associates will be working there starting July 26.

I'll keep Wincon in mind. I am a 20-year veteran of maritime and commercial practice, fluent in Chinese since the 70's when we Lao Wai could only get into Taiwan, and find the evolution of the practice in China to be fascinating. I spent 5 months as Foreign Legal Consultant with a Chinese firm in Shanghai in 2004 before family matters arose in the US, and will rejoin the good fight in China soon. There is definitely a need for us in China which local counsel cannot fill. But the key is perseverence and patience. Cheers!

Mr. Platek

Cheers --

You are in the right field as I see an increasing need for maritime lawyers in China as its growth in imports and exports directly corresponds with its growth in shipping. We are also seeing a number of fishing companies now sending their product to China and also taking their vessels there for repairs.