China Law Blog

What he says in the movie is 100% true.
That's not unfair that's the reality.
Like it or not.

Does he believe North Korea is a worker's paradise because that government has mandated that it be?

No he does not, stop putting words to his mouth and stop setting up straw men.
Just because you cannot digest that the US is worse than China on car emission standard the fact will remain the facts.

Comparing U.S. and China gas emissions standards is the equivalent to comparing United States practice to China theory.

Who are you kidding? Nice way of spinning things out of control. The US doesn't even have those standards. And in that sense it's behind China.

Gringo --

Thanks for checking in. I am going to respond to your comments one by one.

1. "What he says in the movie is 100% true.
That's not unfair that's the reality.
Like it or not."

What he says may be 100% true, but I am attacking him for what he left out. In the law we call that misrepresentation by omission. For instance, it would be a misrepresentation for me to sell you a car by bragging about the condition of its interior and its engine without telling you that its brakes were completely shot.

2. "Does he believe North Korea is a worker's paradise because that government has mandated that it be? No he does not, stop putting words to his mouth and stop setting up straw men.
Just because you cannot digest that the US is worse than China on car emission standard the fact will remain the facts."

It never even occurred to me that someone might think this question was anything other than rhetorical and I asked it to make a point, not to accuse Gore of actually believing it, which I know he would not. Yes, and the facts are that China uses fuel far more inefficiently than the United States. The importance of standards in China is dwarfed by the importance as to whether the standards are enforced or not. Do you really not see that? Do you really think that the enacting of laws is enough?

3. "Comparing U.S. and China gas emissions standards is the equivalent to comparing United States practice to China theory.
Who are you kidding? Nice way of spinning things out of control. The US doesn't even have those standards. And in that sense it's behind China."

If you would think my little post could spin things "out of control," I can only believe that the control to which you are referring was exceedingly tenous to begin with. Anyway, I doubt very much whether anyone who understands China would agree with you.

By the way, one little crack in a wall does not necessarily mean the whole building will fall down.

Hi CLB,

Of course what you are saying about the lack of enforcement of environmental laws in China is true. But setting higher standards is a positive step, a goal to work towards. The larger point Gore's movie makes is, what is OUR excuse, in the US? We have the ability to enforce our regulations but lack the political will to set higher standards. It's ridiculous.

Other Lisa --

Good to have you agreeing with me re the lack of enforcement of environmental laws in China. I have yet to see the movie and I certainly do not claim to be an expert on global warming so my point is really limited to Gore's unfair citing to China.

CLB, environmental issues in China are a particular interest of mine. They illustrate the factionalism and decentralisation (as you've been discussing) of the Chinese government and also provide one of the few forums for NGO and citizen participation (as herky-jerky and arbitrary as the process may be). Also, from my inexpert reading, there are some really impressive, smart people in the government working on these issues (Pan Yue, for one). They really do get the seriousness of China's environmental problems and are trying very hard to do the right thing. But the problems they are having with enforcement are also part and parcel of China's attempt to establish a consistent rule of law, one that is not arbitrary and dependent on individual power. Whether that's possible to do in a one-party, authoritarian state remains to be seen. They need this rule of law desperately, yet the idea of same contradicts the interests of the CCP in other ways. It's a heckuva ?? (mao2dun4, if the Chinese doesn't stick)

Even if China's environmental laws are not uniformly enforced, another important point is that these emissions standards can still be used to keep US cars out of China. I mean, so what if local governments flaunt the regulations? If you are talking about importing cars, who's going to get the nod - cars that follow the central government's rules, or cars that don't?

And that in areas where standards are enforced, there's a real opportunity for US companies working in areas of environmental technology to make some dough.

I think if nothing else that there is some serious attention to these issues in China's Central Government that is sorely lacking in the current US Administration. And that really is inexcusable.

I have seen Gore's movie. I liked it. He makes the case for global warming and catastrophic climate change very persuasively.

He cites that whole incorrect "Chinese word for crisis = danger and opportunity" cliche (or whatever it is...I forget), but I'll forgive him.

A good chunk of footage shot in China also.

I agree with your assessment and, in fact, just today, I was discussing how impressive Pan Yue is and how much authority he seems to have. I do not think most Westerners realize how open the Chinese government has become regarding the extent of China's environmental problems. Pan Yue is constantly talking about how pollution is costing China 10% of GDP a year.

I also like your point about how foreign companies are far more likely to be held to China's written environmental standards than domestic companies. Some may , not to those of Even if China's environmental laws are not uniformly enforced, another important point is that these emissions standards can still be used to keep US cars out of China. I mean, so what if local governments flaunt the regulations? If you are talking about importing cars, who's going to get the nod - cars that follow the central government's rules, or cars that don't?

And that in areas where standards are enforced, there's a real opportunity for US companies working in areas of environmental technology to make some dough.

I think if nothing else that there is some serious attention to these issues in China's Central Government that is sorely lacking in the current US Administration. And that really is inexcusable.

I have seen Gore's movie. I liked it. He makes the case for global warming and catastrophic climate change very persuasively.

He cites that whole incorrect "Chinese word for crisis = danger and opportunity" cliche (or whatever it is...I forget), but I'll forgive him.

A good chunk of footage shot in China also.

"What he says may be 100% true, but I am attacking him for what he left out."

That's ridiculous. You cannot talk about every single aspect of such a complicated matter in a 90 minutes movie.

You demand this particular snippet others demand other snippets and there is no way to make every damn person in the world satisfied.

But the point is clear: car emission standard in the US BY LAW is worse than that in China. And that's unacceptable.

You overdramatize this. No sane person thinks that China is somehow a leading country on enviromental protection. But that's irrelevant when someone makes the point that the US is behind China regarding car emission standards.

And you question that " Does he believe North Korea is a worker's paradise because that government has mandated that it be?" was just plain stupid.

No he does not think that nor did he say that so you may stop talking as if you could read his mind.

Gringo --

An economist, a physicist and a chemist are stranded on an island with one unopened can of food. The physicist suggests they roll the can down a hill where it will strike a rock which will pierce the can and release the food. The chemist suggests they cool the can in the ocean then heat it in the sun so as to cause the can to burst. The economist suggests they assume they have a can opener.

Under your reasoning, the economist has it right.

I give up. You win. Al Gore knows China and comparing the way things actually are in one country with the way things should be in another is perfectly fair. Therefore, because the U.S. Constitution says everyone should be treated equally I can unequivacally state that the United States must be at least tied for the most equalitartian country on earth and I can complain about countries like Sweden and Norway and Denmark which may not have such an enlighted legal provision and say that I find that unacceptable. Who cares about reality on the ground when we can so easily and immediately change everything through laws.

Oh, and North Korea, it has to be the best place on earth, right Gringo? Al Gore never said this, but certainly if its written laws deem it then you must believe it, right?

I fully expect additional overzealous potshots from you (which I will again publish) but please be advised that I am done with this discussion and any failure to respond on my part should not be viewed as assent to anything you may say.

I understood from the film that American cars are not permitted to be imported into China as they don't meet emission standards but was told that the Chinese prefer the American cars and are buying them. What is accurate?
Bonnie

Ms. Dawe --

Thanks for checking in. Here's what I know. I know that I ride in way more American branded cars in China than I do here in Seattle. Most of the lawyers with whom we work in China drive Buicks. All of these Buicks were built in China.

It is my understanding that the duties on imported cars are quite high. We looked into this once for a client who wanted to bring his car into China and I think we learned the duty would be around 30%. I recall reading somewhere that this duty recently declined, but I think only to around 25%.

So the reason so few cars are imported into China is, near as I can tell, because of the duty. Until the movie came out, I had never heard of emissions being a factor. Not saying that it is not, but I had never heard this.

I do not know what China's emission standards are for either domestically produced or imported cars, but I am skeptical they are tougher than those in the United States, even on paper. I would love to hear from someone who has actually researched this.

You tool! I live in China as well and, if you watch Al Gores move, you will notice he doesn't say China is a pollution free paradise. He says Chinas emission standards for CARS are higher than in the US. This is a FACT.
Get off your right wing neocon( minority) bandwagon and watch the movie again.

Geddy --

Wow! So I criticize Al Gore for being deceptive and for that alone you become convinced I am a right wing neocon. That's some deep thinking.

I never even watched the movie but if you had actually read my post (instead of just maybe "feeling" or "emoting" it) you would have noticed that I said Gore said exactly the same thing you are saying Gore said. That China's emission standards are tougher than the United States.' So let's start touting North Korea as being more democratic than the United States because it has Democratic in its name.

Facts undermine your arguments, China's CO2 emissions per head are much lower than the US, so even if "at ground level", the new car requirements for low emissions were not met (you also do not back this statement up), the proof, as they say is in the pudding, they still emit less CO2 per capita, the USA is behind, and many US cars are very poorly rated when it comes to CO2 emissions.

FACT: US cars cannot be sold in china according to their low emissions standards

FACT: US CO2 emissions are greater than the US

Al Gores point is, why isn't the US doing more, when everyone else is making an effort, even China?

Stop diluting the point with criticism of China, or Al Gore. CO2 in the atmostphere is warming the planet, with devastating potential, and the US is lagging behind on policy, it's time the US did more.

I am guessing you either know nothing about pollution in China or you do not care about the truth. Pollution in China is rapidly increasing and virtually nothing is being done to stop it. If you want to live in a fantasty world where everything is blamed on the United States, go right ahead. I prefer reality.